The Dangers Of Trade. Your Thoughts?

Discussion in 'The Apocalypse' started by Keith H., Jun 26, 2016.

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  1. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Winter Trade By Robert Griffing.

    In the 18th century during the fur trade period traders would supply various goods to the Indians in exchange for animal skins. The Indians became dependent on some items of trade, & thought it was a fare exchange, animal skins for white man goods. They in the main did no harm to the traders because they wanted the trade to continue.
    The white traders made a lot of money by trading in deer skins & furs & so in the main dealt fairly with the Indians. Some white traders may not have been as honest in their dealings with the Indians, but on the other hand they had to be careful not to anger or alienate the Indian trappers. Both sides wanted this trade to continue.

    Post TEOTWAWKI traders will have no continuing supplies, unless it is fresh home grown vegetable produce they are trading. What they have, is all they have. There will be no more trade goods other than those they accumulated pre shtf. Unless they can trade off the goods that they take in trade, but then what is the trader's gain, as no money is involved?

    Why would people trade away useful items that they can use themselves for other items they want? They may trade items they do not need, but then would the trader want these items? What if people did NOT have anything to trade with? Why wouldn't people simply kill the trader & take all they have? If there are no further supplies, what have they got to lose?
    Keith.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
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  2. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Faulty logic there!
    Goods will still be produced and traded!
     
  3. Tom Williams

    Tom Williams Moderator Staff Member
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    Contact with outsiders is a huge risk puts you in danger of illness takeover and death get prepared get set up the time you spend now on getting ready will pay off with alot of good when its needed AVOID CONTACT WITH OUTSIDERS
     
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  4. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    for once, I couldn't agree more Tom.
     
  5. Vatheri

    Vatheri New Member
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    I think in apocalyptic situations the less contact you have with people outside of your trusted group is better. When people lose everything in an apocalypse, when they are desperate to feed a starving child, or they need the medicine you have to survive, etc, etc.. They can't be trusted. There isn't much incentive to not harm or kill you for your goods if they believe it would be an easy option. That being said, the best option to protect yourself in this situation other than avoiding it entirely is being well armed enough to deter them from considering violent option.

    In other words, you are significantly less likely to be a victim of an exchange if you and your party have weapons and means to defend yourself. If you don't have means to defend yourself, I wouldn't depend on the pure-hearted kindness of strangers in need of your goods.
     
  6. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    forget trade for a very long time post SHTF, and i'm talking YEARS not months, anyone foolish enough to attempt trading before this is liable to be attached for all their wordly goods and probably injured-or worse- in the attempt.
     
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  7. John Snort

    John Snort Well-Known Member
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    It will be safe to trade only after people have stopped murdering each other for supplies they have. At that time I suppose people will have started to live in communities again and each community will have leaders who'll enforce laws [those which actually matter at that time]. I believe at that time trading wouldn't be too risky. Before that, you'd have to make-do with whatever you have.
     
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  8. joshposh

    joshposh Expert Member
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    In a civilized world, trading would be the answer to everything. Supply and demand. If I have an abundance of potatoes, then why not trade it for some fish. Pretty simple concept in a civilized world where there is law and order. In a dooms day scenario, there is no law and infrastructure is gone. I think those that have nothing or are just plain greedy, is where the problems exist. These people turn into marauders and they take what they want without the care of human liberties and life.

    In other threads I have talked about stocking up on things that you would actually trade for, coffee and tobacco are some of them. I don't need it to survive, but I'm sure others would trade for it. To be honest in prepping that is the last thing I'm thinking about is stocking up on things I don't need to survive. But when presented with the question, "what would I trade", then I would say coffee and tobacco. But in true life, that would be the last thing on my mind and stocking list.
     
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  9. willywonka

    willywonka Member
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    You can bet that I will be showing my dominance and power when trading. Trading is such a dangerous thing if you do not know the person you are trading with. It is like doing a dance of displaying power and showing that you can't be easily overrun. I will probably never trade alone, because as a woman, I might get taken advantage of.
     
  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I will be storing what I need post SHTF, I suggest everyone else does the same, its called being prepared, don't trade-don't trust other people, it just isn't safe and wont be for generations.
    if you cant make it or repair it, then learn to live without it.
     
  11. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Ya can't store everything!

    How many courses of the three main antibiotics do you have?
    Do you stock a replacement wife?
     
  12. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I couldn't agree more(apart from the replacement wife bit!:p who needs a replacement wife??)
    like I said, if you cant store it, learn to live without it.
     
  13. koolhandlinc

    koolhandlinc Expert Member
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    ROFL some of these last posts made me smile.

    Ok, someone who has horses make a bargain to use the horses to pull disc's over anothers garden area in exchange for supplies. Another has several cases of canning jars. Another asks if they hoe the garden for some food.

    So the person with horses helps 20 or 30 others by doing plowing and such. They good fresh and canned good in exchange.

    The person with the garden gets some of the heavy work completed and so saves a lot of work on the garden and produces more food.

    A person shows up with soap and bargains for soap. They need fire wood and any fresh food possible.

    The person with the garden trades for soap and says this other person has a fire wood production system that used a odd set up to run an engine and ends up with electric chain saw he uses for cutting and sizing. He needs more chains for chain saws. Will barter for wood and chains and possibly some oil. This guy also has a system that will charge 12 volt car batteries and can charge batteries for you.

    Another guy has a gasifier he built onto a pick up truck. He can drive 2 hundred miles on a load of wood. A bunch of local people decide to travel about searching for stuff that can be used for projects. medicine, vitamins, food, special supplies for canning, etc etc etc

    The old person down the street says she can teach people to can if it will help.

    The people who live on will have things they are good at. The people who can't be trusted will be weeded out with time. Labor and knowledge will be bartered at first was well. Not in the beginning but with time. Trading will occur.
     
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  14. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    not for a long time will trading be safe, i'm not talking weeks or months here, but years, maybe never. by the time trading would be safe you've probably used up anything you've stored anyway.
     
  15. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    As far as trading during hardtimes, let me illucidate a bit about interactions with the Indians here in America's Southern Appalachia.

    I'm going to present history / background (and ramble a bit) for two paragraphs:

    Genetically (I've done the DNA tracking) and culturally, I am 97% Scots-Irish Hillbilly (Ulster followers of William, i.e. Protestants, lived in the hills + pro-William = hill-Billies = hillbillies, slang). My grandfather played the banjo, my dad the guitar, ... . Tennessee Ernie Ford was a friend of the family. We were of the Over Mountain Men (Colonel Sevier's contribution to the lot who left out of Sycamore shoals, crossed the mountains, and cleaned the clock of Ferguson's Brits on King's Mountain. Did our lot interact with the Cherokee? Kinda-sorta when you consider family bibles having the names of the Cherokee with whom they intermarried (genetically, I have no Cherokee in me, or precious little). The Trail of Tears did NOT include many (if any) American Indians from up in these hills. Would you want to have come and gotten them, especially considering that the hillbillies would also have been fighting on their side?!

    The relations between hillbillies and the Cherokee were as complex as complex gets. One season it would be all totally smooth sailing -- trading and family relations all civilized to the max. The Cherokee were/are a civilized people and are by-God smart. Another season turns and some Cherokee or hillbilly gets a fire in their belly and all hell breaks loose and a bunch of folk get killed. Plus, there was infighting among the whites and there was infighting among the Indians. Welcome to our species, now add the factor of Southern Appalachia having no shortage of thermonuclear emotions. Both the Scots-Irish and the Cherokee are as hot-blooded a lot as you will ever want to meet. This place was not post SHTF, it was ongoing SHTF. This place oscillated back and forth between heaven and hell.

    Now to the point:

    Where people are leather-skinned and afraid of nothing, trade and marriage and playing music and making liquor and everything else human will continue SHTF or no SHTF. Just the other night I was drinking liquor outside a black man's place along with a Hispanic fellow you'd not want to cross. One wrong word could have resulted in hospitalizations or dirt blankets. Now given such a motley crew, add SHTF and people coming in and trying to do evil in this area of homes. Let me tell you, given that, the three of us would kill the bejesus out of any and all of those given to such interloping. Tell you something else, we'd have not just remained only three. More would glom together with us -- ex-military, workers of every kind, ex-felons (no shortage), women who could more than hold their own, ..., and an equilibrium, however tenuous, would return to this place. Any outsiders would become ambient temperature and in short order. Children and grandchildren are being raised in this place, so whatever differences, animosities, racial bigotries, economic impediments, hell, high-water, cosmic radiation, cooties, the worst of SHTF potentialities, doesn't matter, humans are going to take care of their youngin's and go on with life.

    Weak people may lose sphincter control and tip over dead. Who knows? But then, weak people have never been and will never be any part of what constitutes a robust future. Robust is the only form of future, by the way. Iron-hearted folk are going to go on. They recognize each other. They form commerce of every ilk with each other. They go on. Become one or get out of the way.
     
  16. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I wouldn't want to open a to public trading post for a long time after things went to pieces but that doesn't mean that I won't have need of trading materials. Nor does it mean that I won't probably be doing a lot of swapping for things. Money might not have much meaning but I am surrounded by wealth and things that I will want to possibly buy later. I don't have a ranch but I live in ranching country. I will be able to buy meat of all sorts with my trade goods. Then there will be some of the medical things and services that I might wish to pay for. This won't be for trading with strangers, it will be within my local area.

    Why would they sell me meat? Because they will have so much on hand that without refrigeration it is almost valueless to them. What do you do with 200 cattle when You can't eat it all before it spoils and you already have more of it stored as canned, jerked, salted and smoked than you can ever eat!!! The same is true if you have 50 chickens or 25 goats or pigs. You keep the adults but you HAVE to get rid of the children of you will have more than your land will support. What do you do with 25 acres of corn? You trade it for other things! Those folks with pigs will want the corn for the pigs and hapily trade corn for meat. This is the way country people have been living forever. It isn't going to stop if things elsewhere goes to crap everywhere else.

    Let me take a moment to tell you how things really are in the country NOW. Lots of people that just want a few cows for milk and a little meat don't keep a bull. The same is true of pigs. You don't keep a boar for three or 4 sows. If you are running cattle, every few years, you find another rancher and trade bulls so you don't have too much inbreeding. A really big place has several bulls and keeps track of when it needs to be done. Small ranchers with 25 or 30 cattle have to watch it closer. You can tell when you waited too long because you will start having derivatives in the cattle's horns. To a lesser extent you have to eat your rooster occasionally and get another form a neighbor. People with more land than cattle bail it and then trade or sell to ranchers that have more cattle than land. Most of the time farmers share combines and such because they are too expensive for something that you only use for a few weeks a year. That is what they mean when you hear them talking about Co-ops.

    While trading may seem alien to urban folks I assure you that the rural people in your nation are keeping this ancient and worthy practice very much alive.
     
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  17. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I live out in the English countryside and we still have a weekly market, had one since the 12th century here, sadly I don't think it will be for much longer as the market site is up for sale.
     
  18. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    I tend to look at it this way...there will be trade on a limited scale in the short term. It will be a need-for-need basis with those things that are already made and hoarded or scavenged.

    Then, cottage industries will start up. Someone with cow hide will tan leather. A person with some skill in working leather will trad for those hides and make shoes, etc....

    The trick is to decide what you will part with. I will NOT, under any circumstances trade 22lr ammo. Not only might it be used against me...but 22lr ammo is not reloadable and therefore finite. I can reload all my centerfire rounds and cast bullets over an fire if needs be...but 22 is a hoard and hold item.

    Anyone with a skill will be able to make something that has value to someone else.
     
  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I don't think trade or barter will figure much -if at all- post SHTF, if its a slow SHTF most British people wont even realise its happening and if its a fast SHTF they'll all be dead before they realise.
    trade or barter will not be safe, either we will get robbed at point of deal or we will be followed back to base and robbed of EVERYTHING, so no barter/trade does not appear in my plans, I will stockpile everything I think i'll need and if I cant stock it i'll learn to either make something which will do the job just as well or i'll learn to live without it, i'm planning to live a simple life post SHTF so that shouldn't be hard to do.
     
  20. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    For the first few months after any sort of fall you don't want to trade much because you don't want to draw any attention to your group or place. After the majority of the sheeple and thugs have died off though that will change. We can't all grow and make everything that we might want or need. There will also be people with special skills that you will need to trade with for their expertise. Doctors are an example of this sort of special skills.

    I actually plan on being a bit of a trader. I have a lot of trade goods and will probably also open a lending library. I live out in the woods but within walking distance of the center of a tiny town. There will always be people that will have things that they don't need that they will want to trade for things they do need. In one of my favorite books a man and his family, after a collapse of things, suddenly went from poor to wealthy because they had a bunch of bee hives and had honey to trade.

    I am prepared for making my place a tough nut to crack for thieves or raiders. As I kill them their heads will go on pikes in front of my place so people will KNOW what messing with me will get them. There is a lot to be said for being the crazy dude down the road. I will trade in town not from my home.

    In all civilizations there is trade and sharing of things. Without it people make no connections and are then subject to being taken over by another group that has made connections and works together. A common defense starts with having common bonds and aims. Trade is one way to establish that.

    Understand that while I am not an empire builder, I am an alpha male and a leader of men.
     
  21. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    I often use the illustration that I have a bag full of hair combs and hair brushes. Now my rapidly balding pate has little use for them. But that fellow with a wife and three daughters...he might be interested in them.

    We come to an agreement and trade for the bag of combs and brushes...with and forwhat I am lacking.

    Now the fellow with whom I traded ...he might trade some of the combs and brushes to another fellow with a wife and daughters...for something he needs or to sweeten the deal.

    The combs and brushes become used in more than one transaction. This is how money begins. Used in more than one transaction.

    Now combs and brushes may not be the ideal money but the readers will get the idea here. They were capable of being stored ....and used...holding a certain value over time.

    This is called a storehouse of value in economic terms.

    Now over the years....gold, silver , and copper have been found to hold/store value as a money..and most people do not have to be told that they are valuable unless you have graduated with a PHD from todays education system.

    I keep an Englehard Prospector...1 oz pure silver coin in my pocket right now along with a 1922 Peace American Silver dollar....


    A Silver Dollar of real American money was not a Silver Dollar..per se.....it was a dollar of silver by weight and fineness. 90% fine.

    A half dollar is half a dollar weight of silver...and fineness 90% fine

    and so too the quarter dollar....90% fine.

    The dime....a 10 cent weight of silver...90% fine.

    and so too the Half Dime....was half the weight and fineness of a dime....90% fine.



    What we had here in our original coinage was a system of weights and measures in dollars and cents.

    In copper to the penny weight ..

    IN gold coinage too....90% fine...a system of weights and measures in gold...to the dollar weight.

    and of course in silver.


    This is no longer taught to people now that we have been to public schools and the absence of it is very telling.

    If you readers think this is a joke what I am belaboring to explain about money..being a system of weights and measures...Think about this one.

    We now here in America have a Susan B. Anthony dollar copper/nickel coin which is two thirds the size and weight of a half dollar ...made from the same metal composition ...yet claims to be twice as much in value.
    You have to be educated to be so stupid and then demonstrate such stupidity to the public and think no one notices.


    This is also an illustration of how little thinking is going on out here.
    It is also an illustration of counterfeiting...demonic counterfeiting....on the part of government or whoever is the true government in this country.

    The imposition of a system of "Unjust Weights and Measures " on a nation and people where in years before we had a system of "Just Weights and Measures" conforming to the Bible. This is the demonism taking place today...by which everything can be bought and perverted if you know how it can and is being done.

    And our founders believed this true when you know what is in the April 2, 1792 Coinage Act....a system of Just Weights and Measures. This is not an accident.




    I like to watch peoples faces when I show them this 1922 Silver Dollar...a true dollar of silver by weight and fineness.
    It is interesting to me to see them as if they are looking at one for the first time and up close.

    The essence of money or trade is that it be swappable....Whatever is most swappable will become money.


    This all is in spite of people becoming and acting like two legged wildlife. People will level that playing field out for themselves when there is no established government authority.

    They will form a government of some kind...if for nothing else to facilitate trade and or barter...an economy.

    It will not happen overnight...in a SHTF situation or TEOTWAWKI...but make no mistake ...not all people are stupid and need government to tell them how to take care of their private business....or hold their hand.


    My non Ishmaelite .02,

    Watcherhris
    Not an Ishmaelite
     
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  22. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    Holy cow Texdanm....111

    Are you and your kin...related to Vlad the Impaler???


    Thanks,
    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     
  23. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    I have said the same thing my self amigo. If the world has truly gone...then you and you alone are the one to defend your castle. Vlad used impaling as a torture and because he was one twisted bastard. BUT...the French Foreign Legion used to mount heads and stack bodies on the hills they defended in Korea. Oddly enough...the FFLs positions were the last ones attacked.

    If you and your family are behind the wire so to speak...and if others have tried to violently breach that wire...heads on spikes will send a strong, clear message that this wire is not worth crossing.

    I am all about a Machiavellian response. If I am forced to do violence, then I shall hurt you so badly and so severely that the thought of revenge will never cross your mind.

    I have no moral problem mounting the heads of attackers on every fence post around my property as a warning to those who would try. I will be as peaceful as the world will allow me to be, but if you force me to war...then you better be prepared for a total, bloody, dirty, and all out one. I will use every bit of my training, skill, and bag of dirty tricks to destroy you.

    We are talking about P-SHTF/WROL.

    Besides....it may be a mercy. One head on a stake may deter five from trying.
     
  24. koolhandlinc

    koolhandlinc Expert Member
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    Time, time will change everything. It will start slow. People will get to know each other and then it will happen. People have traded through out history and will again. Don't mount heads of friendlies. That could be me.
     
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  25. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    depends on the mortality rate of the actual event, if its minor or slow to take effect then yes trade or rather barter will come into effect when cash becomes worthless, but if its the big one people may be very few and far between especially in a low population area like my own, finding someone to trade with might not be an option for some considerable time.
     
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  26. koolhandlinc

    koolhandlinc Expert Member
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    I agree with this. As with most issues. Many variables involved.

    This was supposed to be a reply to a previous post. LOL Opps
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  27. Oldguy

    Oldguy Well-Known Member
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    Heads on stakes just lets one know who killed their kin.
    It puts fear in them but also revenge and it labels those who did it as monsters, inhuman.

    History is full of examples and it rarely comes to any good in the end.

    It is one way but not the one I would choose, I would be more inclined to lay the bodies out on my perimeter as is for any family to retrieve and bury. I am not a monster but do whats needed when needed plus digging holes to bury them is hard work, they can do that.
     
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  28. koolhandlinc

    koolhandlinc Expert Member
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    The book Lucifer's Hammer has a great solution to an opening approach to trade.
     
  29. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Southern Appalachia is my reference point. My dad and his brothers were, legally speaking, felons. When the sun went down, there was some distinction between the law and my kin, and then there wasn't. But there were rules, people followed the rules, or they went away.

    Hard times come. The steel-hearted will form a framework of order. There will be trade. Those given to chaotic behavior will assume ambient temperature. I've known many nice guys who killed. They were good people, they simply didn't put up with any crap and returned aggression with mind-numbing uber-violence.

    Let me repeat. There were rules; there will be rules post SHTF. In urban areas, areas where the average person is without a microgram of self-sufficiency, all bets are off. I wouldn't want to be there. In the heartland regions of countries, however, people will go on -- FOR HARD-TIMES ARE NO STRANGER TO THEM.

    The Mafia is into garbage disposal. They move hazardous waste across state lines. They began dumping such waste into a landfill near where my kin called home. The locals told them to stop. Organized crime kept it up, so local men began shooting into the engine compartments of these trucks. 80% of the men took turns being the shooters. Zero fear. Everyone in every adjacent community supported the shootings and would have come to their aid if asked. There was nothing that local law enforcement could have done about it; so, they didn't try. The local deputies would have laughed had they been asked to protect the trucks.

    Heartland areas of which I am familiar will continue to be organized. In hard times the rules will become harder, far more unforgiving. Zero slack. Outsiders will not just be unwelcome. My grandma kept a revolver nearby. A 13 yr old boy at my Church killed his abusive father. He was back to Church in a couple of weeks. I was standing there when one of the Church Elders (God bless that man's soul) told the boy, "You did what you had to do. Welcome back, son."
     
  30. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Heads on stakes just lets one know who killed their kin.

    Yep. And it also lets them know who will kill them under the same circumstances.

    It puts fear in them but also revenge and it labels those who did it as monsters, inhuman.

    Maybe in your opinion...but then again...you have inasmuch as said that people get what they deserve, and victims are only victims because they "didn't mind their own business"...so, then I would say that the former owners of those heads on stakes wouldn't have their heads on stakes had they simply heeded the NO TRESPASSING signs and minded their own business. How many ways can you have it?

    Revenge? I am not particularly worried about "revenge". If I am forced to violence, I will hurt you so bad, and so terribly that the thought of "revenge" will never cross your mind. In the absence of law and order, then there will be no ability to seek revenge. You will be a rotting sack of meat, and your "revenger's" head will take its place on one of those stakes.

    So...mind your own business right? Isn't that your take on it? Cowardice by choice, or submission to the criminal whims of others?

    As for the "monsters" and "inhuman"...well...we will just have to reflect on who was the one who started the whole mess? The man who was defending his family in his own home, or the invader who paid with his life for trying to take it? Who is the monster? The man who would not have harmed anyone had they not attacked his family, thereby forcing him to action...or the invader? I would say the monster is the one with his head on the stake.

    It must be exhausting for you to keep running around and contradicting yourself.


    History is full of examples and it rarely comes to any good in the end.

    Especially for those dumb enough to try to breech those lines again. In the end, history won't be the judge...it will be the long term survival of the family who is protected by a man who will do what is necessary to defend them.

    It is one way but not the one I would choose, I would be more inclined to lay the bodies out on my perimeter as is for any family to retrieve and bury. I am not a monster but do whats needed when needed plus digging holes to bury them is hard work, they can do that.

    What bodies? You don't believe in self defense...at least not according to what you have posted over and over again. Or is it still that you don't believe in self defense for other people? I should think your advice to your family would be to "mind your own business because if you're attacked it's your fault" in the apocalyptic world.

    You will be eaten.
     
  31. Oldguy

    Oldguy Well-Known Member
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    Never said I did not believe in self defence, juse not going all Vlad the impaler style.
    You are assuming you are the biggest, baddest, meanest, most savage Alpha around and you just might be at that.
    My experience is that there is always someone bigger,badder, meaner and more savage out there than you.
    And there will be many out there smarter than you who could be your undoing.

    My advise to most anyone come the Apocalypse is walk softly but carry a big stick

    Is the English language a second language for you as you have difficulty with its comprehension?
     
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  32. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    I speak, write, read, and communicate very well in the English language. Words have meaning. All of yours in previous posts point to the assertion I made, based upon YOUR words. There very well may be someone who is bigger, badder, and meaner (situationally) than I. But if history has shown me nothing, history has shown me that in three decades of dealing with the worst, most violent, and most depraved of criminals...I haven't met him/them yet who could best me. Unless and until I do, then I will go on doing what has worked so far. One thing is certain. If I go out, I will go out fighting, not like a lamb who is "minding his own business" because my business will be protecting me and mine. The cost will never be worth their reward.

    You will be eaten.
     
  33. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Nope but I will have no problem if bad people think that I am WAY to crazy to mess with. Terror has been used in wars throughout history and is an effective deterrent as long as you are able to back up the threat with action.

    Mutilation of the dead is common and in Vietnam both sides did some of it as do the cartels now days. Look up Columbian Necktie. Being nice won't get you much in a disaster like we are talking about.

    While Vlad Tepes is seen as a monster by most he is revered in his homeland of Romania for saving the Christian country from the Islamic invaders from the Turkish empire. He had a small army and was being attacked by a larger army. When they saw all their Islamic brothers impaled by the thousands they retreated from the "madman". The way the Turkish empire would have treated the people had they won would not have been a lot better.

    In the end he was finally defeated and died in battle and as they say history is written by the winners. He protected his people with the only weapon that they had that was powerful enough to send that invading army home. TERROR!
     
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  34. Oldguy

    Oldguy Well-Known Member
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    Minding my own business is just that minding my own business! it is not being a lamb at all.
    If someone mess's with me it becomes my business and it will be sorted, I do what needs to be done when it needs to be done.
    I can do that at six inches with cold steel, at one thousand meters with hot lead or most anywhere in between.

    If I get eaten I will get spat out again as I am mighty sour.:D
     
  35. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    BBQ'd lambchop. Actually...Ignored BBQ'd lambchop.
     
  36. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Isolationist attitudes to trade will slow down any recovery after the shit hits the fan. You can choose to put heads on stakes and hide behind your walls but human beings have only advanced as far as they have through co-operation and specialisation . At some point you will need a doctor, midwife or a mechanic. You will need machine parts, food or fuel. Can you cover all those bases.
    Maybe there are a few trades we can do without because we've got them covered on an amateur level but KoolhandLinc's post #13 about the benefits of co-operation makes so much more sense to me compared with isolationism fear or aggression.
    I have skills I can trade as well as the ability to manufacture trade goods from raw materials. I have value to the community. I also live in an area where we know each other, we already barter, grow food and raise animals.. We already make sure the old folks are alright and the kids are safe. Unusually for the UK a lot of us also have firearm certificates. We co-operate and look after our own.
     
  37. Oldguy

    Oldguy Well-Known Member
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    Most everyone still breathing after an event will sooner or later need to trade, the risks will be there but so will be the benefits
    Weigh it up when the time comes, is the risk worth it?
     
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  38. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    i think that most people still don't realise how basic a lifestyle will be post SHTF, without a manufacturing base or any imports the supply of items to trade will be very limited.
    trading will depend on just how many people survived and it may be many years, even decades before the population is up to a large enough number to make this occupation worth while.
    I wont be using up space to store trade goods when I can use that space for goods I will actually need post SHTF.
     
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  39. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    That's a fair point LW, why would anyone risk trading for something that they have stored prior to the breakdown, in that instance the risks could not be justified. Other scenarios such as a pandemic would also make isolation the only option but in the absence of disease society will be stronger and recover faster for having trade and interaction.
     
  40. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    on the face of it that could be so, but I do think the "hunker down" period will be much longer than most people think, it may take some time before we are able to trust complete strangers enough to co-operate(this is my main problem) and again I repeat this all depends on the numbers of survivors, I still don't think in todays society many have the capability or mental ability to survive an all out event, things are very different now to say the time of "The Blitz" and peoples attitude is very different to those days.
     
  41. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    I'm not saying I'll trust total strangers LW, I've always advocated building relationships and networking with other like minded preppers. There are quite a few of us in the local community who will be able to bring in yet more people who can be trusted. Doctors, dentists, nurses, teachers, engineers etc they're all already here....but the best part is that many of them are multi-skilled so they won't be a drain on resources while their technical skills aren't in demand.
     
  42. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    no, I've always said in a SHTF context strangers=danger.
    as for having a group around one that is all well and good but how do we know all these people will survive ? especially doctors and nurses who are on the front line where death and disease is concerned.
    our "local" dentist and all the staff are located 9 miles away but they don't live there, they all live in Exeter over 30 miles away, same with our doctor, and i'm sure other trades and professions are the same.
    there are a lot of care assistants in my area, also part time shop assistants and people who work in a dog food factory, no doctors.
     
  43. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    :( It's obvious that my approach isn't going to work in your location then LW, still...nil desperandum old chap, you and the OH will just have to look after each other :) so no change there eh?
     
  44. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    always was my intention from the start!!:D
    I've tried to start groups before but they either never get off the ground or they fall apart long before SHTF ever happens.
     
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  45. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    I think trade on the micro level will start more quickly than you think. Whether or not you devote space to trade items or not...some people will have the skills to produce something that others will need and they will have the raw materials to do it. Larger population centers would most certainly take longer to get any sort of fair, or flea markets going but I am willing to bet that smaller towns and communities with stable populations who were acquainted before an event where the players were generally known will spring up more quickly.

    What seems to be a current common thread around here is that "I ain't gonna do it...therefore no one else will either".

    The uneducated may honestly believe that will be true, but if anthropology has taught us nothing, it has taught us that the human being is a social animal. People are going to have a nearly overpowering urge to get information and have social contact with others even if they have a family unit or some sort of a fantasy "prepper group". The urge will be so powerful in some cases that it will cause them to make contacts, even foolish contacts, with complete strangers.

    The guy huddled in his basement, or bunker who is a true loner is actually going to be the exception rather than the rule and it will most likely be due to the fact that they are misanthropic or have some sort of social disorder to begin with. We are wired to need other people. As much as I tend to think "other people", those outside my family and close friends, are a giant pain in the ass and generally not worth any emotional investment...I know I will want information and contact. I won't abandon common sense and security...but I will eventually need to know what is going on beyond my gates.

    Having something to trade, and having the strength to keep it from being taken, will be the new defining of wealth and status. People will gravitate to the person(s) who can reasonably provide some security for trade like the old Hansgraf of the merchant caravans. There will also be a caravan style of trade between smaller communities in shorter order than you would suspect because of the availability of roads and general ease of travel in good weather...coupled with the human need for information and contact.

    Then, of course, there will be the very real probability that no matter how much you love them...your family will be annoying you so badly, you're willing to get gang raped by a band of marauders just to get a few minutes of peace and quiet.
     
  46. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I know people in general have this compunction to be with others of their kind, the "social animal" or as I call it the "Herding" urge but that is going to get many of them killed.
     
  47. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Maybe, but the benefits off-set the risks. There is the element of team work improving the group's ability to achieve more while still defending itself, one person wouldn't be able to complete all their necessary daily tasks while keeping an effective watch but a larger group or trading community benefits from economy of scale. The necessary tasks get completed, an effective guard can be maintained and there may even be time for rest, schooling or leisure. As always the big problem stems from the question of how is this utopian dream going to be governed and how to ensure everyone pulls their weight?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  48. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    I like being near folk who can reduce/approximate compound fractures, suture arterial bleeds, have some mannitol on hand for intracranial pressure due to head trauma, those sorts of thingies. I can fix a lot of things, however I'm no demigod. And I haven't any eyes in the back of my head. Dogs can bark, however they leave much to be desired in the thinking department. It would be handy to have other folk of my ilk to help walk perimeter.

    If one is a bad judge of people, that can be fatal. True, 95% of people, I don't trust. And friends cost money. SHTF situations result in a marked drop in spirituality among these human critters with which our land masses are suffused. If there are three on your continent, tomorrow one will be at your back doorstep asking to borrow a cup of sugar. Another, you'll never see -- and that's good, for he is a madman. The third, is of course, you. Can you really trust that third person? Just asking.

    Life teaches that there are things upon which one can plan, however in the real world one gets slammed with stupid, anomalous events of tragic proportions that couldn't happen in a million years ... and they happen to you twice. I've seen lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of meteorites from Mars manifest themselves.

    Therefore other humans, though risky upon interface and as unpleasant as they may be, come in handy, even become necessary ("Oh crap, I'm going to have to pay her back for helping me!"). If you are wired as a human, you will likely communicate/interface with them and if you don't, your human brain will create various & sundry examples of them and have them talk to you between your sleeping moments and your waking moments.

    Sorry.
     
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  49. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    No need to apologise as far as I'm concerned old man, I think we might both be singing from the same hymn sheet.
     
  50. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    There are places NOT to be when it hits the fan. That is an out'n'out fact. Do you wanna be anywhere near a megalopolis when things go sideways?! NOT ME! You wanna be where FEMA or any other fill-in-the-blank government/military operations are hot?! NOT ME!

    However, their DO exist communities composed of reasonably intelligent, self-disciplined, sufficiently-moral people. Find such places, move there, assimilate, be humble and as near-invisible as possible. While there, be friendly, be of value. While there, prepare for what's coming, but do not show your cards. Do this stuff now! Don't wait until it hits the fan.

    I won't call the above "safe spaces" -- post SHTF, no place is going to escape the effects. However, you wish to be where people have a history of coming together and certainly not where folk go for each other's throats.

    Me, I came from a small town that was corrupt to the core. Even though it appeared bucolic, you could get bayoneted in the kidneys by your bestestest "buddies". For nearly a century the place was the center of chop-shops, gambling operations, the running of moonshine, and people getting shot / "going away and never being heard from again".

    I googled the name of my state and "little Chicago". My hometown's name was in all of the initial hits. I sh###eth thou not.

    Therefore, just because a place comes across as all rosy and sweet, that sure doesn't mean you want to live there. Gotta do your research. You don't want your liver handed to you.

    Let me say this again. There do exist places that are semi-safe. There do exist places where people are rather civilized and where friendships can be made. As with all other things in life, looking for good is like panning for gold -- there's lots of work involved. The nuggets ARE out there. They still exist.
     
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