The Fighting Rifle

Discussion in 'Gun building, Maintenance, and Care.' started by Ken S LaTrans, Jul 15, 2018.

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  1. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    For this topic, I am only going to discuss the AR15 pattern rifle. Mostly, because it is my go-to rifle/carbine of choice for any emergency.

    First...why do I choose the AR15? I have used the AR15 as a duty/patrol/entry rifle for 30 years. I trust the platform completely, and I know what works, what doesn't, what is needed, and what is just "extra shit a tacticool dood wannabe amateur will hang on his gun" is.

    Yes...the AK47/AK74, CZ58, Sig556/556R, Hks and variants are all magnificent fighting rifles...and I own more than a few of those as well...but for this post, it is all about the AR.

    My last patrol/entry rifle was the POF piston driven rifle shown below. It sports an 11.5" barrel, suppressor, white light, and an AimPoint Patrol red dot. These are things that I consider to be necessary. Yes,

    The dot sight. I can get by quite well with iron sights, but at 50....my eyes are telling me "Gosh, thanks for adding the dot", so I consider it to be generally necessary for me. If you don't want, don't like, can't afford a good dot....read again...I don't care. It is for me, and you won't be fighting with my rifle.

    The white light. This should be self explanatory. Not all gun fights are going to occur in good lighting. In fact, the extreme vast majority of gun fights will occur in low to failing light. Having a bright (at least 500 lumens) white light on your rifle to identify your target is a critical bit of gear.

    The suppressor. This isn't necessary in a general sense, but in a very specific sense...to me...it is. As I was with a specialized unit who went through many dope house doors, serving high risk warrants in shitty neighborhoods filled with gangs...we had an exponentially higher incidence of actually shooting than a patrol team officer would. Firing a 5.56 round in a confined space could/would/did do a lot of damage to a lot of ears...mine included. The can is a great aid in protecting the hearing I have left.

    POF Can Truck.jpg
    The rifle below is the exact other end of the spectrum in a fighting rifle. While it is a custom build with a billet upper/lower...all it has on it is a 500 lumen white light. I built is specifically as a basic fighting rifle to be ultra light, fast handling, and ultra reliable. This is the rifle I use to introduce students to the AR15 platform.
    10059_103238189848774_1217030434_n.jpg
    This rifle is my most favored non-NFA (non select fire, non SBR, non suppressed) go anywhere, fight anywhere, survive anywhere rifle.
    LWRC-DI.jpg
    This one has become my "truck gun" fighting rifle that loves under the back seat of my truck.
    IMG_1743.JPG
    Other than color...this rifle is a virtual twin to the rifle above. Same light, same dot, same manual of arms...and it lives in the trunk of my Challenger.
    Fighting Carbine 2.jpg

    The fighting rifle is the rifle you can take to a fight. Period.

    Fighting Rifles.jpg
    If you can't fight with it...don't own it.
     
  2. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    I had to go online to jog my memory about the following name.

    Remember the Israeli IMI pump rifle in .357?! That carbine was called the Timber Wolf. I always wanted one of those. I've got a lever in .357 mag., but to this day I'd like to have a pump carbine in .357. Some of these Italian copies of American rifles of the latter 1800's are of pump .357, but have barrels that are too long for my liking -- too difficult to swing quickly.

    The .357 bullets being designed to open up at handgun velocities royally tear up jack when launched at rifle velocities.

    My attraction to this class of firearms: Not an "assault rifle" (young folk should stay off any BATF, Homeland Security, or FEMA list; me, I probably already am on lists -- what a joke!; maybe I'm on the Geriatric Trouble-Maker list); has severe terminal ballistics; has next to zero recoil.

    My Winchester lever .357 w/16" barrel is super handy, weighs nothing, no recoil, is skinny skinny skinny, swings like a little stick, and is on-target in a flash. Oh and did I mention, it blows things apart. Supernatural.

    The .410 shotgun slug I've read has the energy of a .357 mag, plus slugs are blunt = dump energy. I know the 20 ga. slugs dump energy like mad -- you don't need a 12 ga. slug for whitetail dear. I need to read about the .410; I've never owned one. When a kid, I had a friend or two who owned them, but my first shotgun was a 20.

    I'm still looking online. May have found carbine in Italian pump rifle. Name Pedersoli "Lightning" has long barrel, but there's also a carbine and "baby carbine". Still looking ...

    https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ti...59/rifles-pedersoli-lighting-pump-action.html

    https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/distributori-nazione.asp/l_en/idarea_3/idsottoarea_224/distributors-united states.html

    OOPS! Just found a warning about these Italian pumps:
    https://www.floridaconcealedcarry.c...erdersoli-Lightening-357-and-their-ilk-beware!!!
    Quality issues it seems! Dang!

    Hey, if anyone finds a manufacturer/distributor of pump rifles in handgun calibers, let us know.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  3. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Uberti makes a GREAT replica of the Lightning. A friend of mine who is one of those strange SASS guys has a couple of them and he beats the shit out of them.
     
  4. TexDanm

    TexDanm Master Survivalist
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    The place of a fighting rifle in survival is basically an individual choice that should be based on what you expect to do if things go to pieces, where you are going to be and what you are going to ask the rifle to do for you. Most people don't have the experience and understanding of its limitations to make the best use of the Assault Rifle civilians versions. They have watched too much TV and are filled with a lot of the wrong ideas.

    The US government went to the "assault" rifles as a different theory on war and how to win it. ARs do several thing very very well. They are light and easy to carry. Their ammo is light compared to most 30 caliber ammo. In a jungle where you very seldom have a clear and certain target their ability to put a lot of lead in the air is a massive advantage. They are also especially good with FMJ ammo about not killing the target as certainly as a bigger round would. You most easily win a war by overwhelming the enemies ability to care for the injured. When an army watches their comrades die of relatively minor wounds it really lowers their moral and will to fight. The 5.56 in military loadings is not a quick killer.

    When it first came out the people that carried it hated it. The government started a campaign to "reeducate" people about the wonders of this new weapon. I loved it. They actually bragged about the bullets sometimes hitting a man in the shin and the bullet going out the top of their heads and the fact that it was a little like shooting dum dum rounds because it would sometimes hit sideways. It would indeed do these things on occasion. The in the shin and out the head is what you get when a bullet doesn't have enough power to break a major bone and it ricochets off in an odd direction. Bragging about bullets "keyholing" is ignorant. That happens when the rifle has insufficient riflings and twist to stabilize the bullet. The is no accuracy in this sort of shooting.

    The early ARs had problems that they fixed with better barrels and reeducating their troops to fire in three round bursts. Eventually they removed the full auto option from some of the models. Three round bursts helps keep the barrel from burning out, saves ammo and it take three rounds to do what one 7.62 round used to do.

    If you live in a major urban city and expect to have to fight your way out at some point and AR or AK is the thing to have. Try to load with upgraded ammo if you can. You are not fighting a war. You want to kill the people that you shoot so that they are immediately stopped from harming you. I really prefer a 12 ga or a heavier 30 caliber rifle but the ammo weight if you are expecting to have to fight an ongoing running fight is just prohibitive.

    If you are going to be in more open country a good bolt action rifle would be a possible best choice if you are going to be hunting and even for defence. The survivors in the end are going to be the ones that mostly avoided gun fights. In the old west you heard a lot about the gunfighters. In the end they mostly died young. No matter how good you are someone is better and even more likely someone that is afraid of you will just kill you. Killing is easy. You never let them see you and make that one shot do the deed. LOTS of the old West bad boys ended up shot in the back. If I wanted to kill someone a bolt action from at least a hundred yards is a top choice.

    If you are going to mostly stay close to home in a heavily wooded ares and your use will be more defensive than an assault then the best "rifle" might be a pump shotgun. Understand, a 12 gauge shooting #4 buck shot throws out 30 22 cal pellets every time you pull the trigger! that puts in in the same neighborhood as an AR with a 30 round Mag in close range use.

    Like old Geezer I have and like the lever action 357 mag a lot. I will have a 357 on my hip and for fights inside about 100 yards I will not feel undergunned against an AR. This is mostly because I don't plan on trying to deal with a bunch of people at the same time and will most certainly not be trying to force my way into someplace where I am not wanted.

    I've handled most of the common Military automatics, ARs and AKs over the years. They are great guns for a military. In the hands of a trained shooter they are about as good a gun as there is for nearly anything especially the bigger 30 cal weapons but in the hands of the untrained you are likely to attract unwanted attention and go through your ammo faster than you could ever imagine. I used to go out and run through 500 rounds with a friend in a couple of hours once or twice a month. You just can't do that when there is not going to be any more components coming maybe EVER.

    Survival is not so much about what equipment you have to start out with. It is rather what you do with what you have and how well you can AVOID injury. Remember, no hospitals and maybe no doctors means ANY injury can go septic and kill you. People used to die from shaving cuts! I like guns and have worked in the gun industry more than once when I was younger. I know too well what they can do and I plan on never being on the receiving end of that. If you crowd me, scare me, try to rob me, hurt me or maybe even piss me off after things have gone down I will probably just kill you. I don't want any enemies... that are alive and looking for payback.
     
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