Think!!!

Discussion in 'General Q&A' started by Tom Williams, Dec 24, 2016.

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  1. Tom Williams

    Tom Williams Moderator Staff Member
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    As i read post here i get to lol long term survival you are going to have to learn todo without as you can only stock so much and will run out coffee tea import goods gone is gone there will be no more pop all your little cofort iteams gone
     
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  2. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    I have always said that none of us can ever hope to stockpile everything we need for the rest of our lives, at some point it will all run out, that's when SKILLS and KNOWLEDGE will be key.
     
  3. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I think the way you are used to living also has some impact post shtf. When out bush & drink water or black tea or mint tea. The mint tea is made from the mint we grow. Sure I like soy drink in my tea at home, & I enjoy the occasional coffee, but going without is no problem. I do however know how to flavour water using certain plants if I get the wants.
    Keith.
    "first day of May, 1770, my brother returned home to the settlement by himself, for a new recruit of horses and ammunition, leaving me by myself, without bread, salt or sugar".
    Daniel Boone.
     
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  4. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    I've been poor before. Things won't go to Mad Max or if they do, I'm not interested in being alive anymore. But things are gonna go poor and I do mean poooooooooor. My mom's dad in his youth was a subsistence hunter; part Cherokee, part Scottish, and part black bear, he was indestructible in my mind. He taught me to hunt and fish. My people came from living in cabins at the head of creeks up in the hollars of the mountains of Western North Carolina. I've seen poor. I was raised lower middle class. We got by. But y'know what, the poor folk from whom I came were happier than the "rich" people of today. Going back to "poverty" doesn't scare me. And as far as having to be "mean" at times goes, family members of mine who did shoot men, were good people themselves; the people they shot deserved it, they were the aggressors, not my folk. One can be poor and civilized and sometimes even happy. Lead a prayerful life and for goodness sake, do not panic.
     
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  5. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    nobody on here is panicking, its the non preppers that will panic.
     
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  6. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Well one hopes that preppers will keep their cool. Some new preppers however are utterly new to the concept. Many folk are just waking up to the reality that things could go very wrong in America. Me, I'm surprised that the dollar didn't tank long ago and I'm doubly shocked that printing dollars hand-over-fist and borrowing money to pay the interests on debts didn't cause the dollar to lose all respect (especially internationally). Existing preppers must attempt to understand these newbies. At my age, I'm from a different world than them.

    The newbies are going to need help. Some have simply ran out and bought supplies and a firearm or two. A lot of good this is going to do them.

    Sites such as this will be getting such newbies. I hope they will be welcome here. I've been looking for a survival website wherein my advice to such youngn's / answering of questions may be of service. As my site name, Old Geezer, implies, my time on Earth is limited. In that time, I want to pass on to younger generations that which I have learned. I've held instructor certifications for handgun and rifle. I can ask a son about ham radio information. I have career experience in electronics and health-related areas. I've worked for major industries. I keep up with world events. I'm not a great writer, this I had to work on -- my brain is only wired for math and science. Maybe these work areas can help me answer questions presented by new preppers. Hope so, I know I'm not perfect.

    As to panicking, a high percentage of people in urban areas are going to head into a psychological state exceeding what we call "panic". People are going to mentally decompensate. Some people are going to devolve into non-people and some people are going to freeze-up / go near-catatonic. One of my undergrad majors was psych and I've worked with psych patients, so I pay attention to my fellow humans as they react to events occurring around the world. The people of many nations, including our own, could be very easily stampeded. This is a major issue when contemplating means of survival.

    I look forward to reading posts here. In just one day I've already learned a few things. I feel this site is very valuable.
     
  7. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Good post Old Geezer, I agree totally. But advising newbies & getting them to listen are two different things. Even so we all enjoy sharing, so we do that & hope that we have been able to help some people along the way.
    Keith.
     
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  8. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Our "kids" are now in their 30s. All that older folk can do is tell younger folk what's happened to them and recommend this or that. Then, it's up to them. I try to stop beating myself up about how I may have made mistakes in raising our kids. I don't blame my parents and I don't think any such excuses would wash with St. Peter, anyway. There's some Biblical quote where Jesus tells his Apostles to spread the Word, but if people turn away, then they too should leave that village (something like, "Kick the dirt off of your sandals"; I've got the quote wrong I'm sure). You know, if you can wake up a person or two every now and then, then you've done what you could do. Such is human nature. Noah must have felt the same frustration, so it goes.
     
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  9. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    most people in the UK don't listen, preppers are seen as something "odd" or "weird", normalcy bias rules.
     
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  10. Flying lead

    Flying lead New Member
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    I'm 55 and my parents and most of my friends think I'm off my rocker-lead a horse to water.......
     
  11. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Post WW2 people were not thinking like this. There was rationing & food was short. People grew their own food, either in their own gardens or in allotments. Volunteers were helping out on farms, as were captured Germans. Hunting small game was the norm country wide. I would say a different generation is the difference, but in fact this was not that long ago. Most baby boomers will remember these times. My parents instilled in me the need to be independent & self-reliant.
    Keith.
     
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  12. Mekada

    Mekada Master Survivalist
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    I am the only prepper in my family and for more than a year I have been trying to get them involved. My friends aren't interested either. It's unfathomable for them to think that the world could go to hell in a day.

    In the beginning I tried to help them see that emergencies happen and having a bug out bag can literally save your life. They are simply not interested.
     
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  13. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Between a rock & a hard place Mekada. About the only thing you can do is make sure that you are prepared. The difficult part for you is that if something should go down, what do you do? Do you get the hell out of Dodge, or do you risk your life to try & help a family that will undoubtedly hamper your own survival? Another alternative would be to make some preparations for them, make up some spare packs, collect some spare gear, food & water provisions. You would not have to spend a lot of money, just collect what you can when it comes to hand & stash it away.
    Keith.
     
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  14. Mekada

    Mekada Master Survivalist
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    I have asked myself that question again and again. They will probably get me killed but I can't just abandon them. I am definitely trying to get as much useful items together as i possibly can without cluttering the house but I am focusing on acquiring new skills at the moment. I wanted to start my degree beginning of 2018 but I might just do special forces training instead. These skills might become crucial in the near future.
     
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  15. Prairie Dog

    Prairie Dog Expert Member
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    Honestly I think that mindset is somewhere between the sheeple mentality and knowing how completely screwed they would be and blindly accepting it will work out.
    Prairie Dog
     
  16. Prairie Dog

    Prairie Dog Expert Member
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    Just forwarding an opinion, but, I have read a lot of posts on many site about how to maintain comfort and the "current" lifestyle through gear, gadgets and gizmos. Some here are much more about advocating for a lifestyle reset mentality. Basically, stop thinking about modern technology and start thinking about basic needs. I will attribute that one to Keith, but others here are saying the same. Identify your basic needs and find a way to meet them...unsupported. If you find one you can not you have just identified the long term challenge you are going to have to use creativity and research to secure the answer.
    Prairie Dog
     
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  17. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    My wife had several brothers. I got along famously with a grand total of one of those fellows. I knew he was not going to put anything back, so I targeted some things that I would pass to him and his family when the SHTF. He got killed when he was only 30 -- had two kids.

    I gave a fine rifle to my youngest son. It would shoot a 2" group at 100 yrds with surplus military ammo. What did he do? Yes, he sold it to a friend.

    "No good deed goes unpunished." "Nice guys finish last."

    Whether one believes in Satan or Mr. Chaos, one of those two fellows usually wins in this world. Factor them in in any planning you do for the future.
     
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  18. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Great, great point.

    I was raised by people who started life off way back in the sticks and/or the mines, plus they lived through the Great Depression, plus my dad and uncles survived WWII (barely). I've held the food stamps, the ration books (one tore out the stamps), the pay slips from the mines ($2.00/week in company script -- only the company store would honor full value). Gardens were universal (I started bouncing a rototiller through red clay around age 13; plus we had kin with a small amount of farmland); we'd gather our water where it came out the side of the mountain; Pap taught me to hunt and fish; ... . I taught all my kids to shoot and raise a garden. That way of life is quickly disappearing. Close to all urbanites and most suburbanites are utterly unprepared for what preppers would call minor events. As to big events, they're gonners.

    And watch how people panic in this day! The least little thing goes sideways and they soil their pants. One class of folk I've run into big time is the deniers, "That can't happen in America!" All manner of "thats" can happen in America, thank you very much. These "adults" are no more mature than a little child. In my own childhood, I saw more #### than any adult should see -- but that's another story.

    There are actually people imagining that Big Brother / FEMA will swoop in and protect them should the SHTF. Maybe the government can protect a handful of cities ... holy crap ... let's face it, that's one BIG "maybe". I find such faith in government utterly mind-numbing.

    OK, time to get off my soapbox. Time to calm down and go to bed.
     
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  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    the main attitude in the UK is "the government will save us", the only thing the government will save is........the government, thankfully we in the far south west of England have understood that in any major catastrophe we are truly on our own, that is well known here. if people don't look out for themselves then nobody else will, this isn't WW2 and the "blitz spirit" dosent exist anymore, its everybody for themselves.
     
  20. Prairie Dog

    Prairie Dog Expert Member
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    Anyone that actually beleives that should do some reading up on the disaster that was "Katrina". The government might, and I say this honestly, might be able to save itself, but in this day and age there is very little extra on the shelves. If they can barely respond to one city in crisis, how the hell is anyone of sane mind thinking they could resonably care for a "regional" let alone a global disaster. This baffles me tbh. The resources are not available to the level required.
    Prairie Dog
     
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  21. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Same here with Cyclone Tracey in 74, we had to fend for ourselves. We had looters to watch out for, don't recall seeing any police patroling. There were plain clothes officers at one point trying to shoot dogs with pistols! No water supply, there was a food pick up point handing out tins of SPAM. We had to construct our own shelter & barricade under the house that was on piers. The house of course was gone. After some removal of debris I managed to get the SWB Toyota Landcruiser started & drove it out from under the remaining rubble. Then I went bush to hunt for some meat.
    6 years later the signs of the cyclone were still there. What was left of my mother-in-law's house was still there. No your right PD, they are still not prepared to handle a major disaster.
    Keith.
     
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  22. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    There are photos of New Orleans cops looting stores after Katrina. They stole some SUVs at a Ford dealership and used these vehicles to load-up that which they had looted.

    The cops were also robbing the citizens of their firearms. Speaking of which, does everybody remember the photos of the cops taking some old lady to the floor when she said she had a revolver up in a kitchen cabinet?! Meanwhile, some dope dealers were still in business / continued to protect their stashes with guns -- cops didn't mess with them.
     
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  23. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    My dad went on about how well treated he was in England during WWII. He said the folk there were super nice. Only thing he didn't enjoy were Brussles sprouts. I have absolutely no idea of where he was stationed in England before being sent into the continent (his battalion then moved tanks and other heavy equipment out of England south through the port of Marseille north to be used in northern France & Belgium; this was where his brother was in the thick of combat, Battle of the Bulge and then on into Germany; my dad got buzz-bombed and such but was spared heavy combat). British civilians got bombed and buzz-bombed, yet rolled up their sleeves and kept on keeping on. They were a brave lot back then. You refer to it as the "blitz spirit" -- yes that and then some! Iron will, got to respect that.

    I wish you well there. Seems you have some land available, excellent. Southwest England you say. You don't have to answer this question, I'm too nosey and you can just tell me to mind my own business, but are you in or near Wales or below Wales like in Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Dorset, ..., that peninsula area? Were the wife and I the money, we'd visit Ireland, Scotland, and England assiduously avoiding the big cities. We are always watching shows and movies from there. I've had several British friends & co-workers. American writers of this day and age are shallow and have no command of the language.

    I love British Enfields I have a No. 4 Mark II (with vernier sight) and an Australian No. 1 type. The Australians kept making the No. 1 rifles and didn't manufacture the No. 4 rifles. This is what I've read. I stock .303 and love to take these out and shoot them, even though they are in superb / collectable condition. A school mate of mine moved to Australia and owned semi automatic rifles. One older fellow he hunted with had an Enfield and could seriously outshoot my friend -- to include speed. The bolt on Enfields is soooooo slick and easy to cycle -- troops were taught to slap the bolt for speed of follow-up shots. Thus the older fellow could put my friend to shame. My friend is back in the states after over 30 years "down under"; he related this info to me.

    Again, I wish y'all well there.
     
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  24. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I love brussel sprouts.
    Keith.
     
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  25. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    i'm in North Devon, very rural fairly remote area, farming area not a tourist area, all the larger settlements are around the coast-not that big compared to the large cities up north, i'm dead centre of the county couldn't get further away from the coast if I tried, Wales isn't that far as "the crow flies" a bit further by road.
     
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  26. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    yeah me too!
     
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  27. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    My home region in Southern Appalachia straddles the Tennessee and North Carolina states' boundary. My dad's family was from East Tenn and my my mom's family was from Western North Carolina. Quite frankly, all that is the same culture / physical environment -- up into Virginia and down into N.Georgia and N.W. South Carolina. Very independent lot due to heavy Scottish ancestry (add a dash of everything else: England, Cherokee, German, ...). If you are interested in a bit of history that nobody seems to know about, look up the State of Franklin history (seceded from N.Carolina in the latter 1700s and seceded from the Confederacy during America's Civil War).

    http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/state-of-franklin-declares-independence

    http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1162.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Franklin

    Davy Crockett was raised about a dozen miles down the road from where I was raised.

    I've hunted high pasture with cousins and didn't know if we were in Tenn or N.Carolina. I guess the altitude was 4500 ft to over 5000 ft -- I could look over and see Roan Mountain.

    I'm gonna look up photographs of the North Devon area, concentrating on rural areas. There's so much about where our people came from over there that I'm not familiar with, but should be. Thank you for sharing.
     
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  28. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    OK, so I just looked at photos from Devon. I concentrated on rural and forested areas; only looked at two tourist sites. Holy ****!, this looks like my region. One big difference however is that some photos of your forests look like "old growth", i.e. lots of moss and ferns. All of our forests here with profoundly few exceptions have been cut or have burned; what exists is all "regrowth". As a young person in the early 70's, I worked a summer for the Forestry Service, Cherokee National Forest, and the old guys took a busload (over four work crews) of us to see a section of "old growth" forest. It was strange, fairy-tale-like. Maybe you guys get more rain. We get a lot of rain, but you guys get more. The other difference is that my region is mountainous and a walk in the woods is much more easy if you are part white-tail deer or mountain goat.

    When the SHTF, I pray that your lot can fend-off interlopers from the cities. Non-preppers don't last long, however -- that will be in your favor. Here, urbanites have to cross mountains or follow valleys into rural areas; which is to say that there are only a fixed number of roads they can take. Rock slides happen to roads; trees fall over them; there's the matter of stranded vehicles; just sayin'.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=app...q=appalachian+mountain+rock+slides+over+roads


    This one happened a good way south of us, Interstate 40 connecting Knoxville TN and Ashville NC:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=app...m=isch&q=hwy+40+knoxville+asheville+rockslide
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
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  29. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Yes, I think when some people get hungry, & they don't have the skills to hunt wild game, they will be prepared to do almost anything to survive. I think the movie "The Colony" showed this very well.
    Keith.
     
  30. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    The wifer and I started watching that movie. When she began to blanch, I turned it off and went to something else. Me I'm a technical person but have been to anatomy labs numerous times -- seen people in pieces-parts across tables. Skinned and gutted critters starting when I was a kid. Got used to gore, still I find such a bit unpleasant -- especially the smell.

    As to people resorting to cannibalism, I have absolutely no doubts about some folk going that way. But then in my life, I've met some seriously messed-up "humans". I've had a bit of experience working psych wards undergrad. Some autistic kids will chew off the ends of their fingers. Seen psych patients attack each other. Messed up sh##. Unpleasant.

    Thus I keep shotgun slugs. Practice with high-powered rifles. I've heard the real-life horror stories from those who've seen a whole lot worse than I've seen. No one wants to think about such, however ...
     
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  31. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I quite understand your wife's reaction to that part of the movie. Like you I have seen dead people, so this was nothing new. But the movie did make me aware that this could happen, & it showed how one of their own number turned against them through fear of not being the one in control. A good reminder to all of us that no matter how well we think we know someone, we can never be 100% sure how they will react in various situations.
    Keith.
     
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  32. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Well put.
     
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  33. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    we have a saying over here, "most people are 4 generations removed from the land", most do not know anything about the countryside, they think it just IS, they don't realise the British countryside is managed and always has been, they don't realise that without someone working it very quickly they wont get 5 feet off the path.
    any fool can survive in the woods in the summer but come the winter, and even here in the mild south west winters are cold and wet-very wet-, they wont last very long.
     
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  34. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    There are school systems in major U.S. urban areas who take busloads of kids out of the cities out to farms to show them where their food comes from. American TV shows almost exclusively deal with urban settings. On cable TV, there is the occasional "survival show", however those shows are utterly bogus -- there's the camera crew and a first-aid crew following the participants wherever they go.

    In "Heartland America" farming butts-up against the towns and cities -- sometimes a city boundary will catch the occasional farm. If a farm gets trapped by a city boundary, the farm is designated "agricultural" and the taxation on that land is very low. "Urban sprawl" however is killing cropland at a disturbing pace. The number of Americans who actively engaged in farm work is down to something like 5% of the population. In the SouthEast where I am from and where we just moved back to, small farms / family farms are everywhere. Most all towns have farmers' markets within easy access. I live in one small town and drive to a larger town (across a mountain pass). Each morning I can see dozens upon dozens of farms.

    Another phenom here is coal mining. There is a major rail line within a quarter mile of our home and at least four times a day, coal trains shake the very Earth. God only knows how long they are. One time when living in my home town, we saw a train load of M1 Abrams tanks. Man, I don't even know how many tanks were on that puppy. I parked our car off to the side of the road and let our kids watch (they were grammar school age and younger). The train was only going about 40 mile/hr, but we sat there for at least 10 minutes. One could invade a small country with that much armor. In that area, there is a massive military industrial presence (not the tanks, I don't know where they were heading). I worked in big industry there for over 20 years, now have gotten into medical technology for well over the past 10 years.

    When we lived in the MidWest, we were in the middle of the corn and soybean industry. Yes, I used the word "industry" because one can drive out of Nebraska through Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, on into Southern Ohio and keep farmland on either side of the road you take. We're talking driving a thousand miles across corn and soybean field territory. I'd put the width at 500 miles. I've experienced this firsthand driving back to the SouthEast to visit family. Each day, I'd drive 500 to 600 miles on the way back home. Open road, I'd do an average of 85 miles per hour. I've put my vehicle close to 100 miles per hour heading through a downgrade section of highway. I've had 18-wheelers pass me at over 85. Out in the flatlands, trains fly at heaven only knows what velocity.

    In corn territory, deer get HUGE. Here in the SouthEast, whitetail deer are small. Bears are rarely seen, but in one neighborhood where we lived, a bear kept getting into a neighbor's apple trees -- that fat thing would break the limbs out of those small trees. On our walks in that neighborhood, I'd sometimes take a revolver with me, maybe to shoo it off back up into the mountains; never ran into it. I like bears. Maybe I'm part bear. My gut is starting to take on bear-like dimensions. My mom's dad was a bear.

    I recently took the wifer with me to a rifle range that is up the side of a mountain and on the way back home a small black bear crossed the road in front of us. These mountains are full of life. Currently we are living in the Shenandoah Valley.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=she...h+valley+photos&tbm=isch&tbs=isz:lt,islt:svga
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  35. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    the trouble in the UK is that most decisions seem to be taken by city folk living in the "London bubble", they have just announced a programme to build a huge load of "garden villages and towns" which will take over green belt and valuable agricultural land, they don't realise the more houses they build the less land there will be for growing food.
     
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  36. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    There is so very much I do not know about the UK. Information such as this I find most valuable.

    In U.S. urban areas, socialists in government attempt to place subsidized housing within middle-class neighborhoods -- this, as if the poor will immediately assimilate. Most often, of course, they bring their criminal behavioral patterns with them. Logic of the left is that "poverty causes crime", when in fact, research over and over again proves that "crime causes poverty". The latter is reality must be denied by those of the Secular Humanist faith.

    In my mind, government planning could screw-up the design of a brick.

    To me, the most dangerous people on Earth are the do-gooders. They are bereft of any and all common sense. Their lives are the living embodiment of an adolescent tantrum without resolution. There is no understanding of them unless you yourself suffer from fulminating neuroses of every ilk. We need to herd them into enormous stadiums and fog them with anti-anxiety medications. If someone is radioactively neurotic, then they should not be allowed to vote.
     
  37. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    for many years now "social" housing in the UK has been mixed in with privately owned housing in the belief that it may solve the problem of more "ghettoised" enclaves, but in reality-especially in the big cities- it just moved "problem" families into another area and just moves crime around.
    its not so bad in a rural area like mine, there is a smaller amount of housing so the problem is smaller too and we tend to sort out our own problems without involving the police, just as well because there aren't many police around here and their getting less as time goes by.
     
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  38. Lee CT NE

    Lee CT NE Expert Member
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    I'm fortunate to live in a rural agricultural area in Nebraska. I find myself surrounded by many like-minded folks who are preparing/prepared. Never have trusted transients, nor even some of the folks nearby. Correctly stated earlier - never know what folks will do.

    Even though I too am an "old geezer", plan to update my skills with crossbows and heavy duty slingshots this summer. Never can be too redy.
     
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  39. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    You're fortunate to live where you live. One is always going to run into strange, even mean people, however in Heartland America there are plenty of friends to be made. And you are a member of the Christian Faith meaning that you may well find a Church with like-minded, friendly people. Having resourceful friends is a HUGE survival resource. We are human, we survive better in a community environment. A Church community also provides spiritual glue and what with prayers being said, you all stand to bring to your crew Inspiration. Prayers knock holes into the next world somehow and with an active prayer life, people just come up with "ideas out of nowhere" and have dreams that instruct them in facing what is coming in the future. These inspirations are coming from our ancestors in the next world who are attempting to guide us, plus there are holy souls (angels, ..., whatever you want to call them) who provide us guidance. We know this due to scripture and nowadays due to reports of those who have died and have been brought back with medical technology. It turns out that we actually do have such wonderful souls on our side -- especially if we have an active prayer life.

    One person who died and came back reported that our sincere positive prayers are perceived in the next world as being like beautiful music floating up to their plane(s) of existence. Very positive stuff, plus our prayers are most definitely heard by the very Prophets of God. Your prayers to The Christ are like, 101%, likely to be heard by Him.

    Aside from normal geologic shakeups that are what they are, come when they come, I believe that no small number of Earth changes are due to human souls turning away from Godly things. Superstitious me, I think all the negative energy we witness in this day and age has some very negative influences on the natural order of things. When the SHTF, we will witness the major cities of the world receive horrific, unimaginable events befall them. Witness the Biblical account of what befell Sodom and Gomorrah. So let us pray for our ancestors and for our fellow souls yet in this world; let us pray that God's Will be done. Any survival actions we take while in a positive spiritual atmosphere are more likely to have successful outcomes. As for those who ignore these ancient truths, well there's not a lot we can do about them or for them, lest we and our families are pulled down by their ignorance and pride.

    Godspeed, Lee CT NE !
     

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