Us Civil War And Possible International Ramifications

Discussion in 'The Hangout' started by Rebecca, Jan 1, 2020.

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  1. Rebecca

    Rebecca Expert Member
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    More and more concerns are showing on here, other forums as well as places like YouTube about tension in the US and the possibility of a civil war flaring up. This is of course a major concern to all members from there.

    I would like your opinions how this scenario could possibly affect the rest of the world?

    My thoughts have been that if the States become fully involved in a civil war it will obviously affect how they deal with the rest of the world. For example there is a large amount of trade between the US and Canada. If that stops completely and suddenly its going to have a devastating effect on the Canadian economy. Many third world countries rely on billions of Dollars in aid from America, if that stops because the US now has it's own problems will violence flare up in those countries now left to fend for themselves (even though they probably should be) and how far would that unrest spread?

    Will the trouble maker countries of the world use a distracted United States as an opening to push their own agendas?
     
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  2. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    In upcoming American Civil War 2.0 you got one side with millions of guns and trillion of bullets, while on the opposing side are full of peoples who can't even decide which restroom they should use, and not to mention doesn't even know their own gender. There will be no war only massacre :rolleyes:

    1. USD will no longer become the dominant reserve currency (which is good)
    2. US based firms will no longer become the dominant financial transaction service provider (which is also good)
    3. Expect bull market for precious metals particularly XAU , helium gas, and crude oil.
    4. Expect bear market for US based tech firm that cater mostly consumer based services. However tech firms that cater industrial goods & services are unlikely to be much affected.
    5. Countries that relied upon importing of US industrial goods & services will seek other alternative (most likely either to EU or Japan)

    I see you've been reading too much US medias. You put too much emphasis in the real impact US Aid programs without even bother to check all the details where all those money goes :rolleyes:o_O
    US Aid only cover very narrow objective and projects, even without those Aid the beneficiary states merely loss those particular aid projects

    They sure will. But that doesn't mean they suddenly become dominant players either, because they will be challenged for sure.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
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  3. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Rebecca and Varuna,

    So far the US and world financial indicators show no disturbances outside the usual range.

    My different view;

    A major US political disturbance also arrives with a disturbance in Tokyo Bay and the Taiwan Strait. Anticipate a clanged political leadership in these 2 places.

    Malaysia's states in Borneo will cease to exist.

    Germany and Russia will arrange a new "Third Partition of Poland".

    Saudi Arabia becomes a province of a non-Islamic Iran.

    Varuna; US AID (and the other programs) prop up governments. When this money dries up, anticipate political upheavals.

    ...

    Now for the bad news; Nuclear warfare is now a less deadly mass threat than germ warfare. How many places are prepared for this ?
     
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  4. Rebecca

    Rebecca Expert Member
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    Good morning Varuna

    Haha yes it is possible I read too much US media. But I have also spent a great deal of time in countries that US aid helps. For a rather random example, Mozambique. They are constantly having little "uprisings by rebels" there so they are not exactly a stable place. The US gives aid in great quantities for programs such as AIDS Relief, Rehabilitation/Restructuring Roads Project, Water Supply and Sanitation Project, Deliver Project for Malaria, Let's Read Activity, Food for Progress. I'm sure there are more but you get the picture. If that all stops and they get even more restless? And they have the biggest deep water harbor in Southern Africa. Which means problems there ripple out across Africa affecting imports and exports.

    And Mozambique is just one of a great many countries.

    Pragmatist, I agree on the change in the political landscape you describe in many places.

    While a change here or there makes little difference at all to many of us, how will many changes quickly affect things. Here I'm referring to world food supplies or lack there of. Famine? As well as the ability of WHO and the CDC to control outbreaks in an even more volatile world. I'm sure there are many more examples.
     
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  5. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    I see ZERO chance of "Civil War" in America......Zero. That is not wishful or hopeful thinking........Civil War is simply not a possibility in America. The closest would be very local civil unrest in a very few cities like Portland, OR.. The federal government will crush any rapidly growing problems of that type with "Extreme" massive overreaction.

    However there is an even bigger event coming to America then Civil War. The "True" control and structure of the Federal Government is going to change, effectively eliminating Republican and Democratic, Left and Right concepts.

    Rebeca.......highly likely the same restructuring will happen in Canada and England soon after America.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
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  6. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    if there is a civil war in America I think the authorities will have their hands full, like they did the last time.
    look at Syria, that is a "civil" war and they lost most of the territory to ISIS, its only because of America and Russia that ISIS got bombed back to the stone age, without that they would have taken over completely, as it stands its still going on.
    Yemen maybe?
     
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  7. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Rebecca,

    If this can serve as a reply; ...

    With a politically-disturbed US (I believe it would be, at most, minor. I agree with Sourdough's views posted here.), Jammu-Kashmir could spark a Pakistan-India nuclear exchange. The radioactive dust arrives at the Thunder Bay Kansas City grain corridor in a month or less.

    Egypt, the largest population Arab Muslim nation, without US aid, would experience a violent confrontation to the weakened PM Sisi. Arab refugees and terrorists moving east toward Israel will experience the Aswan High Dam converted into a talcum powder factory.

    China has developed methods to breed weaponized mosquitoes.

    Fortunately for us North Americans - Canada is de facto connected in most all aspects to the US - the US also has programs going on for national survival and recovery. Rifles and rockets are out; armored HAZMAT suits and lasers are in.
     
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  8. Duncan

    Duncan Master Survivalist
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    Opinions are like butt-holes; everybody has one. As the resident treasonous communist semi-progressive and contrarian on this forum, here are my opinions on the likelihood of a civil war in the United States any time soon; these are worth exactly as much as any of yours, which is to say: zip.

    There ain't gonna be one.

    We didn't have one in the 1960's, despite our country losing its figurative virginity and first war in Vietnam.

    We didn't have one in the 1930's, despite our country see its wealth and employment go down the toilet.

    We hadn't had one since the 1860's, but that was a different country and different everything. Today, there's simply not enough of a divide to get the people of the United States literally up in arms against each other. Sure, the people here are pretty evenly divided between worshiping and despising the present President; and there are a few extremists on both sides of the political ditch who are angry with the way things are going, but they (examples being the "smash the capitalists" lefties and the "from my cold dead hands" righties) are not that powerful and important in they eyes of vox pop -- at least, not yet.

    There will be increased rancor and snarling as the Americans go through their quadrennial mating dance this coming November; we will go through our ritual weenie-waggling with Kim, Rouhani, Xi, Putin, and any other bad-guy-of-the-week dictator. But most of us won't be getting our pantyhose in a knot; the economy is kind of good, most of us have a job, we are all pretty well fed, we pick one of the two bull-shit flavors on TV to get our biases buttressed, and all will be well.

    Some of you are looking forward to a spark which will set off a major confrontation; I can't think of any (certainly not Virginia on January 20; most people don't care about firearms one way or another anymore). Even if a major political figure (outside of orange) is assassinated or a couple dozen schoolkids blown away by a fool with a firearm, it'll be big news for a week or so, then back to NCIS Los Angeles on the tube.

    Macbeth had the right handle on most of the news nowadays: "...a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"!
     
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  9. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    don't be so certain, anything can happen and probably will.
     
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  10. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    lol lol lol!!!

    I realize you are talking a bit tongue in cheek here but with a definite note of seriousness.

    I often refer to this as a public education..a television and or movie education. I am often want to note of someone referring to a movie or television program they have seen in response to a deep question being asked.

    And my question is......these people are voters????

    My issue with much of television and movies is finding something worth watching. I need to be mused...not amused.

    I wear out the remote between awful programming and the awful ads.

    Gas Lighting???

    Thanks,

    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     
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  11. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    It would be "interesting" if Bernie Sanders won the Nov. election. I'd like to see the reaction of the military brass when he de-funds our nation's defense. The stock market will tank, of course. Higher taxes will create a nation of scofflaw citizens. Millions of Hispanics will flood into Southwest America, once ICE and border patrol are defunded and immigration laws go unenforced. The resulting U.S. economic downturn or overt depression will spread to Europe. Bernie's gutting of the coal industry alone would pop the current economic balloon.

    There is a sinister part of me that would like to see the collectivists win with the resulting dollar dive that would follow. The dark part of me wants to see everything come apart. Wouldn't it be "fascinating" to see a real re-distribution of wealth, to see black smoke billowing into the skies above major cities!

    Maybe what is needed is a major crash and burn. This current "good times" period conceals the truth of our economy being without core structural support. A debt-based economy is a fleeting economy. Let the truth out. Let it all fall.
     
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  12. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  13. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Because there isn't any American Civil War (yet)

    Extremely unlikely, the folks there (including their head politician) already comfortable with the status quo, nor they have the necessary "ingredients" to make any substantial move.

    Also extremely unlikely. The 4th Reich has already had the entire EU and their banks under her thumbs. She doesn't need to "re-partition" Poland.

    This is a real possibility. And the most likely outcome. (TBH I say this is damn good outcome)

    USAAID projects tend to overlook what actually needed by the beneficiary states and see things from their own perspective rather than local perspective. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying USAAID is bad, their money is most welcome. However investing in projects that more of a "vanity" doesn't exactly have much real world impact to the beneficiary state.
    However in places where the amount of money is significant compare to the of the beneficiary state budget, its certainly have strong impact.

    In places where the amount of money is significant compare to the of the beneficiary state budget, its certainly have strong impact.

    China has already stepped in since about decade ago with their OBOR (One Belt One Road)

    Which part of the world you were referring? Pretty damn sure I don't eat / consume anything that was imported from US (I only eat edible foods). Most countries import agriculture products from US because it was part of trade deal offset NOT because they don't have other alternative or unable to produce it themselves. Or in some cases country simply import from multiple sources to control domestic price by increasing available stock.
    The notion of US agriculture products feeding the whole world is a political narrative that has no basis in reality of the situation.
     
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    1. Duncan
      Excellent post, Varuna. I don't agree with all of your beliefs, but you paint a realistic picture of what the future could be.
       
      Duncan, Jan 3, 2020
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  14. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    "those that fail to learn the lessons of history are destined to repeat them".
     
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  15. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    Borneo's Malaysian states - and Brunei - are Islamic. The local folks have nominal influence compared to Great Powers' concerned about Islamic "disturbances".

    The 4th Reich has delays to their LPG underwater pipeline and the EU, also recipients of the Russian fuel supplies, is somewhat weakened. The RU's banks are German and French and German control is lessening. Recall some recent financial problems eg the PIGS - Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain, and the refugees' financial cost-sharing.

    Iran on the west bank of the Persian Gulf means Israel is in constant DEFCON 1 - full alert . Anticipate some problems.

    Actually, emphasis must be on "(and the other programs)". AID projects - and the other programs - are understood by the US managers. Do not believe the programs are charitable contributions. AID and the other programs support US foreign policy objectives.

    Mozambique's ports and air fields are near Simontown, RSA. The US watches any Chinese OBOR near Simontown and Walvis Bay.

    US agriculture programs are MORE - and MOST famous - for their presence on the world commodities markets.Glance at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. America's "Grain Trade" (includes some non grains like legumes (President Jimmy Carter's peanuts) is richer and more powerful than the US oil industry.
     
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  16. arctic bill

    arctic bill Expert Member
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    you stated that Saudi Arabia becomes a province of a non-Islamic Iran

    i disagree saudi arabia is sunni and iran is shiite . the two side hate each other and have been at war since 600 ad
     
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  17. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Arctic Bill,

    I wrote a "non-Islamic Iran" because of proposals floating around for a regime change involving the government of Iran.

    Iran used to be like Lebanon used to be; several different categories of population participating in government, the economy (less minor jobs), etc.

    Saudi Arabia could also experience a population complexion change. Nasser did this in Egypt.

    That was my point.
     
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  18. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    What does religion has anything to do with it?! :confused: I never understand american and white people in general in segregating peoples based upon their skin color, religion, or any other attributes. Is it so difficult for you guys to live in peaceful coexistence regardless of differences?! :confused: No wonder you guys still stuck in A-stan after 18 years :rolleyes:

    EXACTLY my point. The whole things is about pushing US foreign policy and has nothing to do with actually helping the beneficiary state. Which is way if those aid became dry and the amount (obligation) of those projects is insignificant to the beneficiary state budget it wont have any real impact.

    That may be the case in Europe or maybe Africa, but I don't know anyone here who eat any american agriculture produce or its derivatives.
     
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  19. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    In contemporary times - although it was really always the case - matters of international relations and "religion" is really dealing with a word incorporating political matters. No big FDI - Foreign Direct Investment - will occur in Borneo if there are potential political disturbances. The Filipinos can explain what's going on in Mindanao, RP. If still not grasping the situation inquire about Xinjiang, China.

    If. eg. a citizen of Sabah, Borneo, Malaysia makes a Haj pilgrimage to Mecca and returns with a net worth like the Sultan of Brunei's, some Great Powers will be monitoring this. If, eg, a citizen of Sarawak, Borneo, Malaysia, makes a Haj pilgrimage and returns with a few wives, (lost my notes).

    If you do not understand US history and it's race relations, it's religion confrontations and the other aspects, use your base knowledge to start talking to elders your trust. Use your personal base knowledge to look for parallels between the Dutch East Indies' "to live in peaceful coexistence" with the Imperial Japanese Army and Imperial Japanese Navy. After all, the locals of the Dutch East Indies were ethnic Malay and the Japanese were Oriental but they were both non-white. This is so important when acquiring petroleum resources for a huge Navy ........ Varuna, do you have any familiarity with the 1904-5 Ru-Ja war a little north of you ? All these issues are not new. (Fortunately Sukarno's dad was Dutch !)

    Did Portuguese Timor have a peaceful process of independence so as to allow them to share offshore oilfield concessions with the holy Aussies ? (I am starting to laugh). Why did Irian Java not become Indonesian territory until 1963 ?

    If arrangements can be made for some American investors to get you started in a well-capitalized night club in Kutaradja, Sumatra, Indonesia, with the above described peaceful coexistence, would you accept ?

    I am now in the mood for ... and a few cold beers.

    Besides the protective mask for the volcano get a helmet with ballistic protection. Then, we'll arrange your safe evacuation to where reality governs.
     
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  20. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Had a delivery and had to leave this new-fangled telegraph key.

    To continue;

    The commodities markets ... I mentioned the Chicago Mercantile Exchange ... do not run public restaurants.

    They are involved in wealth a/k/a/ money.

    Some economic maneuvers could send food prices into the stratosphere. The nearest food won't be found locally.

    ......

    Afghanistan is a US domestic political issue. Afghanistan is already a part of the Chinese sphere.

    ......

    We can make the Acre - Medan Sumatra corridor into another Macao, China.
     
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  21. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    Varuna,

    Don't sell yourself and other members short here.


    Americans can be very dumb about a great many things and in particular...religion.

    With the standard issue public education here in America and so many Americans educated by television and movies...Americans cannot comprehend that politics is heavily in bed with another devout and zealous religion called economics.

    This devout and zealous religion of Politics in bed with Economics is in the business of properly "Herding" people world wide to keep and maintain markets..even if it means controlling peoples beliefs by their religion, skin colour, sexual habits ...etc etc etc...all under the moniker of "herding." And without many even aware it is going on.


    Some people here in America are catching on to how extensive is this Herding fingerprint of which I am describing.

    Think Hutu's and Tutsi's.

    The history of the British Crown Merchants is one of pitting often and when necessary one culture against another if it will protect their profits. The Opium Wars are a textbook example of this.
    All this to facilitate their true religion of power and profit.

    The Crown did this to the Muslims too...ever heard of Gordon Pasha....Chinese Gordon.?? I believe that one backfired on the Crown.

    But the Crown Merchants came into heavy conflict with the Japanese..who als0 took over much of the opium trade during WW2...as well as Crown operations in oil and Rubber in that same war.

    These wars are not always what they seem in the history books...with so much information missing.

    Then all one has is race...race....and more race..or religion,,,,religion...religion....instead of what is really going on.

    No one wants to think of such devout and zealous economics/politics as a religion.

    How about banks and insurance companies behind so many government decisions...wherein the average citizen has no thought to look??



    Varuna….let me tell you how stupid so many Americans really are......

    We go around this world fighting one war after another..one conflict after another...

    Historically speaking ...the victors are supposed to get the spoils. Yet America gets into conflict after conflict and brings home no new spoils nor territories. There can only be two conclusions here.

    We lost these wars or we were really fighting someone else's war...for someone else's profits

    Some people have even gone so far as to say that when these wars are over...the Generals step in …..General Motors, General Electric, General Dynamics, GeneralFoods....etc, etc, etc.
    And they set up shop on depression priced real estate.

    What are the chances these Generals were steering these wars all along backed by their banks and insurance companies?

    But let us keep being distracted by religion and racism or any other pabulum our phony media and educations can use/misuse to set the hook into us and steer/herd us as needed for someone's profit.


    As to A stan...we are clearly there to protect someone else's profits...someone not wanting to be seen or known....a private fiefdom for profit.

    This has become standard US state department/defense department doctrine....not how to end these conflicts but how to keep them going and so too the profits during a war.

    I think this current President has been trying to get us out of this never ending cycle of wars.

    I also think someone is currently trying to get us more involved in Middle East and Muslim affairs to protect their profits...via planned conflict. Think GFW Hegel here.

    Some of us have seen this movie too many times.

    How does George Santayana say it??

    My non Ishmaelite .02,
    Watcherchris
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  22. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    A US civil war will be fast and done! It won't be a North-South or East-West thing this time. It will be urban liberals against suburban and rural conservatives. Let us look at this. They don't have guns. They are not in the military or veterans, Very few are in Law enforcement. Being urban most of them are not outdoorsy sorts that garden, farm, hunt or fish. They are mostly white collar. Who exactly is going to fight for them because they are NOT going to do the dirty work for themselves?

    Short and sweet they will yell, scream and then surrender as soon as someone that is willing to fight for what they believe in shows up. Most of their leadership is going to haul ass out of the country as soon as they realize that the military and National Guard isn't going to kill Americans. The liberals hate the military and have not made many friends in that area. Which side do you think they are going to fall on?

    The Second Amendment was added to the constitution with exactly this possibility in mind. If the Government fails to follow the constitution and infringes on the rights of people that right will allow the PEOPLE to reclaim the Government and return it to the rule by the people. we are getting closer and closer to that point. Real Americans don't fear their government, they RULE the government. When the government officials stop reflecting the will of the people and fail to abide by the rules of our constitution they become enemies of the state.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
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  23. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    No need to go to pilgrimage to Mecca to do so. These days they typically "sourcing" their wives / mistress from eastern Europe, although sourcing from Lebanon or Syria is also a viable option (depend on the client budget)

    I understand that the Dai-Nippon was in serious need of war materials particularly raw commodities.
    BTW Soekarno father was a Javanese and his mother was Balinese and both came from the rank synonym of Viscount / Viscountess (non landed noble but heredity) in par with my grandparent.

    The Nederland need something to cling on, and they were selling religious & ethnicity difference as divide et impera. Furthermore, at the time the knowledge of the mineral resources was still unknown to every party involved.

    Remember what I've said about the majority of the western half of Indonesia as "shit hole places". Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the ordinary / common peoples but due to the local politicians urge for power.

    You know back when the Portuguese established themselves in Spice Islands. they were giving the local choice whether to embrace the Bible or embrace the bullets (more like canon rounds though). And when the Dutch (VOC) came they also giving similar choice albeit this time it was embrace the Koran rather than the Bible (the VOC had made arrangement with the Arabs trader beforehand).
     
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  24. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    We are in basic agreement with just about everything and differences can be attributed to using the web as a substitute for meetings in conference rooms.

    The premise I've been "pushing" (but did not specifically mention it until now) is that the government of Malaysia had/has laws discriminatory against their citizens who are ethnic Chinese and Indian. The laws favor ethnic Malay Malaysians. Borneo needs investments both for economic development and jobs for the "locals". China not pleased with a KUL policy that's anti-Chinese. You know the rest.

    Some material presents Sukarno as half Dutch. I accept your statement as the definitive answer.

    The Hague needed to appease the Dutch colonialists and thus the delay in relinquishing Irian Java.

    Of course I remember your mention of Sumatra. I know the place and avoid it. This is all my point. US race problems (and "religion" problems) have parallels in Indonesia. You recently had a high-level government official finish a prison sentence for a sex crime with hints of Islamic influence in the event.

    ...

    And don't forget Singapore was once a part of Malaysia - about 3 years - until Lee Khan Yew pulled out.

    ...

    All these "religion" problems and related have deeper-seated meanings and usually involves wealth acquisition and wealth transfers.

    Meanwhile, I have a hunch the 3rd Crusade wasn't about children's educational opportunities northwest of the Holy Land.
     
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  25. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    Varuna,

    Varuna,

    I'm going to tell you a little secret about religion and in particular...the Christian Religion and for which many Christian Ministers are at fault for leaving their flocks ignorant and uneducated. It ought not to be this way...but it is.
    Thus Christians can themselves be very ignorant of many things including Christianity.

    Also in a blatant attempt to teach the secular religious dogma that all religions are the same religion and all gods are the same god...American public schools are doing the same scam. They too teach ignorance...by not teaching this at all for which I am going to describe.



    In Christianity...there exists no such instruction to convert people to Christianity by the sword, by burning at the stake or inquisitions or any other method of force.
    Conversion is to be by the will of the Father doing His work in the heart of those whom He chooses and for His purposes.

    Any Church which converts by force...is not Christian and or has departed from the Candlestick.

    Once you know this.... you can look at what passes for history out here and see something very different. Something for which we here in America and most of the world are never to know or even connect the dots. We are never to be able to think this far.

    You learn to see the hidden side of history ...the Occult... side and a side for which many of what passes for leadership wants us never to know or recognize.

    That is how I know that any church/religion which converts by force or coercion is a counterfeit church. It is not Christian.

    This also tells me what I need to know about Islam.


    One of the things I do in my spare time is observe/read for counterfeits in leadership, world events, even Occult happenings and historical traces...in history itself. It can be difficult to find and requires patience and knowledge of certain patterns in history.

    Nonetheless...that is one of the facets I have learned....Christianity has no such instruction to convert by force or coercion.
    Any such attempt is a counterfeit church...Not Christian.

    You will find no such instruction to so convert in the Bible by force.

    I can take this further but this will suffice for now.

    Thanks,
    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite
     
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  26. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Watcherchris,

    Real good info; compliments.

    About 2 years ago Henry Olsen in an article titled "Don't Forget High Earners", wrote:

    "So long as Democrats remained open to private sector growth, these people would vote Democratic based on their stances on social issues and their antagonism toward the southern-Evangelical-tinged tone of the modern GOP."

    Page 32, 18 Oct 17, National Review Magazine

    I'll defer to Varuna to verify, but I believe Indonesia's founding documents had an "inherent requirement" of belief in a supreme being as an aspect of citizenship in the new nation.

    If it's accepted that America's public schools are really a current FDR Civilian Conservation Corps disguised artificial employment program, it's all as clear as white light passing through a prism.
     
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  27. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    Pragmatist,

    Well said.... well said!!!

    I have thought the same, and for some years now, about many government programs....that they are often for the purpose of securing government by manufacturing more government jobs....and public schools in particular. Ishmaelites at work.


    My non Ishmaelite .02,

    Warcherchris
     
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  28. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    Again Pragmatist,

    Concerning this from your previous post. I've had some time to think this through although the exact reference escapes me at the moment.

    It is not well known by the average television and movie educated/public school educated American that Secularism Humanism was identified as a religion in a court case some years back. I also don't believe it is desired that this be known or recognized as so...as a religion.

    This is one of my reasons for so often trying to frame todays politics as morphed into a devout and zealous religion of "Herding" aka....Divine Right of Kings/Absolute Power.
    It is become secular humanism...as its route back towards absolute power/divine right of kings.

    It is so very very seldom in history that men, once they taste of power, that they are want to quietly return home and away from such temptations...or the drug like strangle hold of power. Power can become an aphrodisiac to some.

    And so we see this conflict taking place right now/today and right in front of us by our counterfeit leadership.
    Ishmaelites at work.

    Glad you brought that up...thanks.


    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite
     
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  29. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    By the way Varuna,

    Concerning this in one of my earlier posts above...



    This also tells me what I need to know about Communism as well as Socialism. Particularly in lieu of the oft quoted G.F.W. Hegel in public schools and colleges in America. "The state is god."


    Again my non Ishmaelite .02,
    Watcherchris
     
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  30. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Although forced conversion isn't compatible with the basic tenet of all organized religion that I knew of (as long you look deep enough) all organized religion has been use as weapon trough out the history against anyone who oppose The-Power-that-be, or as vehicle to gain power. Unfortunately due to the medias & politic, the majority of world population failed to understand such facts. This is why I despise all organized religion (all of them without exception)

    The proper translation in English is "In God We Trust", however due to linguistic factor (contextual meaning were lost in translation into English) the clause were misinterpret.
    Nonetheless the clause has been use by the Islamist as their vehicle to gain legitimacy as the dominant religion despite the fact that the majority of the nation population (even today) were practicing syncretion of animism + any of the organized religion in daily life. Also keep in mind that paganism (Confucianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and local Animism) get count as having singular supreme being (monotheism). This is the main reason that merely checking Indonesia demographic statistic (religion) will never yield any accurate result. Don't be surprised if you meet someone whose celebrating both Eid al-Fitr & Christmas or partake in completely different religion activity. Obviously there are always the exceptions. Unfortunately those exceptions are the one who get into the medias.

    It should not be taken literally. Its more about putting the interest of the state above religion or any other aspects such as ethnicity, culture, race, etc
     
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  31. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Well all the previous crusades was about land grab and securing lucrative trade route. The next one most likely will be about securing minerals (petroleum & rare earth)
     
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  32. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  33. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Big pro-2nd-amendment rally in Richmond, Virginia, Jan 20th, 2020. What will be particularly interesting is if Antifa forces show up armed; many Antifa were armed with semiautomatic rifles with large-capacity magazines during the Charlottesville violence in 2017.

    In this new year of 2020, there is the very real possibility of some serious violence erupting in Virginia.

    http://revolutionradio.org/2020/01/04/virginia-is-ground-zero-in-the-war-over-gun-control/

    https://johnbwellsnews.com/virginia...ectric-phones-internet-for-gun-confiscations/

    https://www.theburningplatform.com/2020/01/05/the-2020-virginia-showdown/

    Mainstream media fellow-travelers of Virginia's collectivist governor and legislature, crank-up the propaganda lies:
    https://www.usnews.com/news/politic...g-northam-push-back-on-gun-law-misinformation
     
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  34. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  35. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    Please look deeper. I am not addressing texts from the Middle Ages or earlier; just the actual mechanical application of "religious" conversion. In Indonesia, can a member of the Islamic faith convert to another faith ? If, eg, a young couple converts to Islam in Sumatra, can they lawfully leave Islam ?

    Does the secular government of Indonesia give provincial political authorities allowances to use Sharia, the Islamic law ?

    If Sukarno's term translated to English meant "In God We Trust", it is the SAME matter. Sarkarno could not "sell" this to the PKI which is secular, or if I may say "atheist". It's really all a national political trade-off and occurs in large geographic nations with large populations. IT is the SAME matter in the US.

    The pagan examples; ... Buddhists are pagans ?

    ...

    Other post;

    Agree that the Middle Ages Arab Muslim barbarians had children's education programs no less inferior than the European barbarians.
     
  36. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    SURE DO. The only hazzle is the civil administration which take hideous amount of time. But than again that has nothing to do with religion or even politic its just bad gov't management. That is why its not uncommon around here for someone to have multiple identity documents. I even have 2 birth certificate with different name & parent.

    Indonesia is a mix of federal system + unitary republic. Meaning shithole places can get away with writing their own local law. Case example of federal system are province of Aceh and Yogyyakarta that were sovereign kingdom in their own right before they decide to join the republic. The central gov't can struck down those laws, but doing so involve politic which may not be convenience particularly if it were during election year. In most case its far easier to just move out of the area to a more livable places with higher minimum wage (example, Surabaya)

    I wrote it to ease of getting my point across. Beside how many people here even know the difference anyway.
     
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  37. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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  38. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    varuna and others,

    followed by

    and you said..



    After years of public schools here in America backed up by a further television and movie education it is very difficult for Americans to detect their government seeking to raise its power and control over the people and this in this process limiting the peoples freedoms and liberties.

    Government itself is morphing into absolute power/divine right of kings....a religion...a devout and zealous secular religion.

    It is literally happening while most Americans are unaware of it transpiring. It is to be taken literally....once you know what it is.



    One of the signs or symptoms of this loss of liberty and freedom is new laws being passed to obviously secure liberty and power of government...not the liberties and freedoms of the people.

    People wake up one day and suddenly find themselves lawbreakers and or felons.


    This is clearly what is happening in America with the runaway attempt to put so many illegal people into America and on the government financial breast...public purse..and eventually the voting rolls. This to be able to outvote the American people in certain critical states and in this perpetuate certain state or federal government power.

    This is a clear attempt at a non representative government.

    This is also clearly what is happening in a pilot disarmament program in Virginia and if effective will spread to the other 49 states.

    What we see here Varuna, is a government, state and Federal, working its way incrementally towards absolute power/divine right of kings. A non representative government.

    And make no mistake Varuna…...this is a Religion at work...a highly organized religion.

    People here in America are so often and so dumb they cannot conceive of secular government being a religion but it sure conducts itself as one...if.....one knows the historical pattern of Absolute Power/Divine Right of Kings.

    The history of all governments, over time, is to work towards increasing their power and control over their people at the expense of their people.

    Once they get enough of power and control over their people they then start looking at other nations and peoples..today it is often resources and or shipping routes.

    And then they come into conflicts with these other nations and people.

    You can follow this history/religion back to Egypt..and particularly Rome.


    My point in all this is be very careful what you think is an organized religion. It is not always what most of us see and know. Or is it what we were taught in school.

    This is a religion...and it is become international in it's scope and control.
    And it is not new and goes back into ancient times.

    My non Ishmaelite .02,
    Watcherchris
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  39. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    We are again in basic agreement. The difference is that I am not a "strict constructionist" when looking at the broad picture of a society. We're using the same fact patterns differently. Of course secular Jakarta can force Acre to comply with national laws but it's usually not worth it. This is about the same here.

    Yes, I understood your pagan points. Others might not have because of how these "religions" are flavored for the news here in the US.

    I'm in an area of the US where there are more "experts" than mosquitoes. Even the political "experts" on Buddhists, Muslims, Taoists , etc have never attended a funeral of these "faiths". We live in a world where civilization is losing to the "experts" and their allies.

    Most Americans would not know the difference between and among any of the named "religions".
     
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