Vigilantes As A Form Of Law Enforcement

Discussion in 'Mental Preparedness' started by pacmantacman, Apr 10, 2019.

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  1. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Well-Known Member
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    What do you guys think about vigilantes as a functional form of justice and law and order in a WROL situation?

    America has a long history of vigilante justice, or sometimes “mob justice” in the absence of functional law enforcement. Wearing a mask and/or eliminating the target when he was alone and isolated, or under the cover of darkness, protected the vigilantes from reprisals from the “criminals” friends and family.

    Actually vigilantes in some places were considered a drastic improvement to lawlessness, and a positive step towards functional society. If someone was raped and everyone knew who did it, society made sure it didn’t happen again.

    We’ve talked about possible reprisals and negative consequences for self-defense, in the form of revenge killings, family feuds and so on. We’ve also talked about a willingness to commit preemptive counter violence. Vigilante justice could be conducted as a more democratic form of punishment and/or a form of preemptive counter violence to eliminate a complicated problem with a simple solution.

    What are your thoughts on vigilante activity. A step in the right direction to restoring order, society working together to solve problems before it ends up on their door step? Would you consider wearing a mask in the right conditions? Or do you see it as a step in the wrong direction. And if you want to stamp out vigilante activity do you do it overtly, do you hold an election and try to legalize the fight, or do you do nothing.

    Doing nothing seems like the easy selection until your being victimized, you have solid information on suspects and nothing is done.

    Lynchings, assassinations, instructive beatings, anonymous threats. Are these tactics completely off the table under any conditions? Or possible depending on the context. And if you are against this form of problem solving, do you combat it? And how would you do that?
     
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  2. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Personally, if it is a proven crime, I am all for it. One crime we could use this on right now is Domestic violence!!!
    Keith.
     
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  3. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    If the mask came with a matching cape I might consider it.:D
     
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  4. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    The problem is that a mob is a self righteous, dumb, angry animal, a mob singles out anyone that is different irrespective of whether they're guilty or not. Here-say, prejudice and rumours serve instead of evidence.
    If the mob meeting out "justice" feel that they have to wear masks then their justice/anger obviously isn't all that righteous or just.
    Lynchings and punishment beatings are not "law enforcement", they're just crimes that are perpetrated by a majority against a minority. If you truly want justice then you need a fair trial at which proof is presented and guilt or innocence is decided.
    Read John Locke.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  5. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    vigilantes are not "justice" they are just mob rule.
     
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  6. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Expert Member
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    IMHO vigilantism may be a necessary evil. Under almost all circumstances I would oppose it. I agree with the consensus here that a mob is an angry, ugly animal. It sees only group think, blind rage. It isn't looking for justice. It is looking for revenge.

    A SHTF event in my mind would not justify vigilantism. There will be a return to the rule of law. Keep the names and the evidence, and those people can be brought to justice.

    In a real TEOTWAWKI, societal collapse where there is no rule of law there isn't going to be a whole lot of due process going on. Vigilantism will be a necessary evil to maintain some kind of order, and to keep the thug element at bay. In this circumstance I would condone it, and use it. There is still something lurking in the back of my mind that says everything should be documented, and any evidence maintained as best possible maybe just as a CYA for the future.
     
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  7. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I don't think there is any excuse for vigilantism, it is not rule of law it is mob rule.
    in a true TEOTWAWKI the mortality rate will be so high that in some places every person will be needed to perform physical tasks and in extreme cases banishment would mean a death sentence without actually having to perform the act oneself.
     
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  8. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Expert Member
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    A minor disagreement. Vigilantism is not necessarily mob rule. By definition: action taken by a voluntary association of persons who organize themselves for the purpose of protecting a common interest, such as liberty, property.

    In your example who would be the ones doing the banishing? Aren't you just protecting your property and common interest? This goes back to biblical times. People have always banded together to protect themselves.
     
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  9. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    it wouldn't have any legality, all they would be doing is forcing someone to leave, probably by force.
    with a shoot on sight policy if they dare to return.
     
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  10. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Slow down a second, I may argue against mob vigilantism but I'm all for justice. If that means putting someone to death or expelling them then so be it...but in order for it to be called justice it must be just.
    A just decision must, as much as is possible be made impartially, without anger or prejudice. The defendant must be able to speak in his own defence and others speak for him without fear of reprisal. Above all it must be seen and those involved in the prosecution should also be accountable to whatever society they're supposedly protecting. After all, evidence means "that which is seen."
     
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  11. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Expert Member
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    You will get no argument from me. I agree 1000%. I guess I am assuming that the group in charge, whoever is making the decision to act, has followed this process, and they are sure, as much as they can be, that the perpetrator is guilty.
     
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  12. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    That's probably the best we can hope for, even in these modern times there is the occasional miscarriage of justice where the guilty go free or the innocent are convicted. If you're seeking perfection I'll wish you good luck with that one.
     
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  13. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I didn't realise we were referring to a "mob", I thought this was more about the idea of delivering justice in situations where the law had failed to act. I am definitely against mob Vigilantism.
    Keith.
     
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  14. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    During a time where there is a functioning rule of law, a mob taking the law into their own hands is illegal and wrong. In a time when the rule of law has collapsed and there IS NO law enforcement that should not mean and does not mean that the criminal element can do as they wish without repercussions.

    As a side comment... I commented on a MOB. I actually believe that sometimes justice can only be served by a vigilante action. If a man raped my daughter and the legal system turned him lose or did nothing. I would handle that situation myself. They would NEVER find his body.

    Onward... The problem with things after the fall is that people won't have the resources to pat the criminals on the head and then put them up in a nice jail and support them. If someone is caught stealing from someone what do you do with them? Do you scold them and then turn them lose? What about when you catch them again? At some point, somebody is going to have to do something and since there is no established rule of law it will have to be done by someone, or some group, that can only be described as a vigilante.

    The best way to do things isn't always possible. People in a harsh environment just don't have the time, resources, or people to coddle a criminal. Different people have dealt with it in different ways. In the American West stealing a man's horse carried a death penalty. this might seem harsh but the loss of a horse could mean the death of a family that depended on that horse for travel and working either pulling a plow or herding cattle. In the middle east, they might just cut off a hand. In some places in the East, they just beat the thief almost to the point of crippling him. Some places just kill them outright or exile them with a kill on sight if they ever come back.

    Justice will have to be fast and simple in the world after the fall. There won't be any jails to store people that can't act right. Someone is going to have to make a decision. Trying to even hold a criminal until a group can be gathered might not even be feasible.

    If you try to make decisions then, based on the way things are done now, you are not going to survive. If you catch someone stealing from you and you release them because you don't have the LEGAL right to hold him he will probably return. He may even bring "friends" and your family will die because you didn't want to deal with him.

    After the collapse of a society, the rules and laws will have to go on the funeral pyre with all the other things that used to be but are now gone. My hope is that once things settle down that small groups will organize and at least try to see that justice is served but even then it won't be the gentle scolding that is now law. The fact is that justice in a harsh world is GOING to be harsh. We now have a sweet and gentle system because we are living in a rather gentle world in the US.

    Our prisons while not always a pleasant place to have to live, offer a better lifestyle than most people in third world countries. they are well cloths, feed, receive dental and medical care, Are warm in the winter and even have fans in the summer. They, in Texas, work but there are strict rules about not working in excessive heat or cold. While they are in prison their families are supported by all manner of welfare and government supports and THEY live as well as or better than most lower class hard working people even in the US.

    All of that is going to be gone in a matter of days, maybe a few weeks or at most a month and then all of these people are going to be either released or killed. Lots of these people have never worked for a living in their entire life and many will return t their thieving ways.

    Good people will be faced with decisions that are not going to be easy, gentle or nice. They will either deal with these people of these people will deal with them. How much kindness can you expect from a gang banger when there are no cops to enforce the laws? You will either become as tough and mean as they are or they will prey on you until they suck you DRY.

    A thief will either be killed or punished so harshly that they will never want t do it again or banished forever. Banishment is really not dealing with the problem though. You are just passing your problem on to someplace else and you will be getting their problems.

    People in different places are going to deal with this problem differently. Sheeple are going to chose to not deal with it. Some places will deal with it harshly. People in Texas, for example, are rather harsh by many peoples ways. We actually execute people on a pretty regular basis. Where I live we have lots of prisons. There is a reason that if they turn out the less violent inmates that they will hit the ground running and never look back.

    In a state that is rather tough on crime the people that live here take it to a new level. Seriously, a guy that was in prison was tried for attempted murder and given a life sentence for spitting on a guard. He was stupid and had aids and thought he might be able to give it to the guard that way. People that are convicted here get much longer sentences. After the fall thieves won't be treated kindly at ALL.

    Rather than just talking about what I don't think will work out and not offering any alternatives I am going to offer my humble opinion on what I think would be a possible solution. It won't be gentle but it might work and be better than just killing them the first time they are caught stealing.

    More later, I have an important Softball game to go to. My Granddaughter Danni is playing tonight for the championship.
     
  15. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Good post mate.
    Keith.
     
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  16. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    I have held off posting on the original O.P due to my inability to clearly express myself adequately. But TexDamn has clearly, precisely and exactly stated my position better than I ever could. Great post Texdamn.
     
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  17. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    The potential for abuse among vigilance committees is higher than among the good-times "proper"/"legal" law enforcement agencies. Know that the "legal" cops pull some winners. One man's "corruption" is another man's only means of feeding his family. During "good times" men of my dad's generation -- to include our own family -- would ride with the cops to dole out some midnight justice. There were those who were profoundly dangerous who the legal system didn't or wouldn't deal with, therefore they got themselves into situations where they just didn't get to see the dawn of another day. So it goes.

    As Texdanm says, when things go sideways, well uh, people gotta take care of themselves and their community. Not exactly an option, now is it. And here's the scary reality for the bleeding-hearts, it works. Violence against targeted, known, positively-identified aggressors works to bring peace to a community. Sorry, but it is true. Do "innocent" / not-as-bad-as-we-thought-they-were people get hurt or gone-for-good under this flawed system? Yes ... and even worse. Here's the deal, don't do this sh## until there's no other option. And, Old Geezer is biased -- I knew and cared about these vigilantes. I sure trusted them a whole lot more than the police.

    Tangential point: It is necessary to have internal affairs departments in police and military organizations. Some people who started off OK (you thought they were) turn out to be monsters. Most ordinary people have no point of reference for crazy -- can't even recognize it on first site. Therefore there is some denial even when the demon comes out the closet. Those who have seen crazy are in no way shocked. I'm old and still, I get taken aback. There's psycho outer-space unbelievable all over the place. Hear a cop story or a story from a person who has worked the psych wards, believe it -- just believe the story. You are not hearing their worst stories -- people don't talk about that sh##.
     
  18. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Ok, I think that most of us can agree that in the event of a total collapse of our culture and infrastructure that the current legal system just isn’t going to be usable. There won’t be any police, and nobody is going to be willing to support and care for malcontents that want to steal and hurt people rather than work. People are going to have to do something or the criminals will destroy the hard working and productive people.

    The question is what can, and should we do. The easy answer is to just kill them all when they get caught. Unfortunately, there will need to be some sort of oversight or the justice will be no different from the crimes and the vigilante will be no better than gang thugs.

    Does someone with starving children deserve to die for raiding your garden for food to keep his family alive? If you shoot them on sight will it be justice when his family comes and demands their revenge? A MOB is seldom in the right and mob rule is a terrifying sort of justice. If you aren’t careful you can easily end up with several mobs all of which are certain that they are in the right.

    There will have to be a lot of rough justice at first. People are going to be isolated and going to be forced to deal with thieves and raiders on a one to one or sometimes one to many basis. If you get raided and robbed and survive you will either have to eliminate the problem raiders, go somewhere else or become basically a slave that will work and have the fruits of their labor taken over and over.

    In a case like this I recommend that you gather others that are being robbed and go hunting. Find the raiders and kill them all on sight with no mercy. If you have to do it alone keep it quiet and take them out one at a time. If a group does it cut their heads off and put them on pikes in the village square so others will know what happens if you mess with these people.

    If you are part of a group in a village sort of way you need to set up some sort of rules and when possible deal out justice as a group and not like a mob or in individual. Kill an attacker but if someone steals from you deal with it as a group. I am a hard man in a lot of ways and will have no problem with killing someone that is harming the chances of my family to survive. That said, I’m not sure that I would kill a man in cold blood for trying to feed his family. If I have food to spare, I will probably let someone work for that food but if they just steal it there will have to be repercussions.

    The simple answer for a local that isn’t known to be an ongoing problem might be as simple as having a blanket party for him. That is when you drop a blanket over their head and upper body, wrap a belt around pinning their arms down and then beating the living hell out of them. That will allow a certain anonymity to the people delivering the beating if they wish it. I have been to a blanket party before and it is a VERY effective way to get a point across that their bad behavior will not be tolerated.

    Banishment in the past was often used. In a tough world banishment can almost be as cruel as killing them. People are not going to be real welcoming to someone that shows up with nothing but wants and needs.

    In many Native American tribes and in some places in the Middle East a thief or person that is acting in a way that has to be dealt with does so by some sort of physical trauma. Cut off a hand or a finger and you are marked forever as being a problem and on thin ice with the tribe. Some would cut the nose on someone that broke the rules. The advantage of this, to them, was that once marked if they did it again and were banished, they couldn’t just go elsewhere and be a problem for someone else to deal with.

    In many places that one chance was the ONLY chance and after that they just killed you. Understand your options are limited by the current situation. In a hand to mouth economy a lazy person that would rather steal than work may be classified as a deadly problem. When things are a little better maybe not.

    If someone steals from you and you gather together a group and catch the person the decision in general about what to do should be a group thing. If you robbed my place and hurt a member of my family, not bad just roughed them up a little, if the group feels death might be the best way to go then it should be my job to kill him. If I don’t, then he should be marked and banished. If I won’t kill him as the injured party maybe he doesn’t really deserve to die. It is easy to lynch someone as part of a mob, but it gets personal when they hand you a gun and leave it up to you.

    The hardest thing is going to be how to deal with the children. A lot of kids are going to out live their parents. Kids can be amazingly tough and adaptable. They can also be like a pack of feral dogs. I don’t know that I could kill a kid without at least trying to find another way. Extra hands will be important when you are farming with human powered labor. I would at least try to offer them work and food if I had enough to spare but in the end their life or death will be determined by their own actions. Charity in tough times HAS to begin at home. If the kid can become a part of the family that is great but if they refuse to get along and earn their keep I will have to deal with it.

    One of my real hatreds is the people that live in the city and if their dog isn’t wanted they take it out into the country and dump it. Those dogs don’t know how to hunt and lead a miserable life. Eventually they get so wormy that their mouth and gums turn snow white and they become feral. At some point we have to hunt them an kill them. A feral dog can become a rabid dog real easy here. That can’t be allowed to happen not to mention that they start killing domestic animals and getting into your garbage every night. The sad thing is that dogs can be starving to death and have the instinct to chase and kill chickens and small calves but then don’t eat them usually. Most dogs doesn’t have the jaw strength or know how to get to the meat on an animal. A chicken just gets them a mouth full of feathers.

    Ooops, sorry I kind of ran away with that story. Back to the point. If I have a dog that doesn’t work out I will either try to find it a new home or I will kill it. I refuse to throw it out and know that it will die a slow miserable death. I’m sorry but even if it broke my heart I can imagine situations where just throwing a kid out would be a greater tragedy than killing him.

    Life in a world without structure is going to be a harsh world. Only those able to make the harsh decisions will survive. My only hope is that I can only make decisions that I can live with and don’t lose my ability to care and temper my decisions with as much mercy as possible. I will be one of the ones that will be desperately trying as soon as possible to bring some rules and justice to the people in my area. People can so easily become little more than animals without some sort of structure and a group that offers them at least the impression of security and protection.

    HOLY COW!!!! that thing turned into a manifesto!!!
     
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  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I think this thread is totally OTT, with the mortality rate that will ensue post TEOTWAWKI some groups are going to need all the manpower they can get, and just how many people are going to upset the apple cart and do something really stupid to get them killed or banned by the group, at most you are talking one or two "bad eggs". most groups will never have to even do anything like this as most survivors will conform to any rules that are in force.
     
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  20. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Post your property --- If hungry, we have work for food. Try to Steal food and we have plenty of ammo, no second chances. A community can also post these signs on the outskirts of their town limits. That way everybody knows the situation. The lazy or thief knows it is a death sentence, no if ands or maybe's. Again only in a WROL or worse situation.
     
  21. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    There seems to be a blurring of the boundaries between self defence (which could be seen as a very immediate form of justice,) retribution and law enforcement (as per the OP).
    Obviously if you're out in the middle of nowhere, or on your own without rule of law there is little point in trying to restrain or imprison a criminal, justice may need to be harsh and immediate. Guilt would be apparent if there is no other possible culprit. That could even be thought of as a form of self defence if you consider it in a really flexible way............But that is neither vigilantism nor mob rule.
    What I'm really against is the idea some poor kid being hunted down, beaten and lynched because someone else lied. No one can deny that has happened in the past, it's happened several times as recently as last year in Pakistan. lynchings were often used as a way to keep an entire section of society subjugated in mid century USA. I don't want to be part of that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  22. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    that's a very good reason why post SHTF I want nothing to do with groups, communities or so called "society".
    defending what one has from outsiders is one thing but corporal punishment because someone has broken the rules of the group is something else.
     
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  23. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I truly hope that you are right. A lot of my post is probably rather slanted by where I live. When you live someplace that has thousands of people locked up in prisons that sort of rubs your nose in the fact that there are a lot of people out there that may not be salvageable.

    It costs a fortune to lock someone up and provide for them. Other than murderers, rapists and child molesters it actually takes quite a lot to end up in prison. Usually, they have several crimes under their belt before they get shipped out if they limit their crimes to theft and low-level criminal behavior.

    There are going to be a lot of people that are going to feel like since there are no cops that they can do as they wish. I sort of see people in mostly three groups. The sheeple will be easy. Most of he will sit and wait on the government to come and take care of them until it is too late and then die. Then you have the people that are tough enough and smart enough to survive and move on. I like to think that is based on people like us. Then there are the predators. Without the threat and restrictions of an organized legal and criminal system, they will become monsters or parasites.

    My long-winded missive above was about how to deal specifically with that last group. Every culture or tribe that has ever existed had to deal with these people. Depending on their wealth and resources they handled it in various ways. If you lived in a poor nation the system for dealing with them was VERY harsh. England eventually decided that banishing was cheaper than imprisoning and used the people that they didn't like to "settle" foreign lands.

    My thoughts above were based on the assumption that after the fall there just won't be the available resources to lock predators and parasites up and take care of them. As far as them being of use as a labor force I can tell you for a fact that trying to force labor from these people ends up being more trouble than it is worth. They are not going to hang around if they are forced to work unless you spend a huge effort to imprison and guard them constantly.

    My effort was to try and figure out how to sort out the predators and parasites from people that just needed some guidance and help. If you aren't lazy and would prefer to be a productive member of a culture then you are a valuable resource but for the encourageable that can't be changed there has to be a way to handle them or they will suck the lifeblood right out of an area.

    How will you propose to handle someone that is just a total loss as a productive person? What do you do with the parasites and predators? Seriously this is something that we ALL will have to deal with if a TEOTWAWKI happens.
     
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  24. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I understand what you are saying but are these people any better at surviving than the sheeple, when everything shuts down and there are no more deliveries the food supplies will be finite, it dosent matter how one cuts it, beg, steal, borrow or ration it, it will only last so long.
    in the UK we don't have any food "mountains", if it isn't in the supermarket, on the truck, or in the delivery depot then that's it. the first bad winter will probably sort out the problem for us.
    i'm not going to do the city vs country thing but I do think this is a mostly city problem as that is where the prisons are located, how many are going to be released early when SHTF? most places wont even realise its SHTF and so normal rules will apply.
    I do think failing a meteorite or a nuclear missile, SHTF will be a slow burn event and most wont even know its happening until its too late.
     
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  25. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Ask Reginald Denny about "civilization".

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...E93F264AA43663F70457E93F264AA43663F&FORM=VIRE
    This video begins after one minute of a blank screen and a 1000 kHz tone, so just fast forward to the beginning.

    Ask the Korean merchants about "civilization".

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...6FBE8F1D2BC3C13895436FBE8F1D2BC3&&FORM=VRDGAR

    The female reporter in the above video is a great example of weak urbanites who are shocked by violence ... any violence ... even self-defense violence. These white urban sheeple will be divested of anything remotely civilized when the SHTF for months on end.

    The Korean merchants in the above video were shooting at looters, particularly one carload (large 4-door sedan, "land yacht") carrying four armed gang-bangers out of their home turf looking for ripe stores to loot. Liquor stores were prime targets. At least one of the Korean merchants owned a liquor store.

    Urban gangs will go rural if need be:

    https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/violent-home-invasion-case-illustrates-threat-posed-by-gangs

    https://www.policeone.com/gangs/articles/5815982-Gang-crime-increasing-in-small-cities-too/

    Even in England

    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/what-like-frontline-paignton-gang-2611051

    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/how-police-tracked-down-exeter-354337

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=chyna+crew+gang+england&FORM=HDRSC2
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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  26. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    Paignton and Exeter are both urban and whilst some rural crime does happen its mostly oil and sheep and tractor related, and in this area it dosent happen much, this is a low crime area.
    I do not subscribe to the theory of looters going rural in a post SHTF environment, not in the UK anyway .
     
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  27. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    I'm from rural. Rural can be just the best folk. Rural folk can turn into mobs. Times go hard, "Were you born here?! If not, get out! Get out now!" I was five when my grandfather taught me how to tie a hangman's noose.

    From a foreigner's perspective, it appears that the UK is getting less and less UK by the day. I've seen this happen here in America where Americans were once Americans. Not American any more. The savagery spreads.
     
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  28. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Situations like the ones described in Paignton would be dealt with by having a quiet word with their Mothers and Fathers where we live rather than getting worked up about anything. As much as lynching unruly children may seem attractive to the older generation it may be a little disproportionate.
     
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  29. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    dare I say it a lot of crime is caused by youngsters these days who have no father figure to relate to, most also seem to have no "off switch" and don't know when enough is enough.
    that is sometimes why they get involved in gangs, the gang becomes their "family".
     
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  30. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Live in some inner-city neighborhood in Chicago or move into some nice little Muslim towns in North Africa. This will be an education in what is evolving -- or should I say devolving -- in G.B. and Europe. Example: Swedish hand-grenade crime on the increase. Maybe all the Swedes need to do is talk to the parents.

    Thirty years ago in Europe and England, urban stabbings were far, far less than they are now, as were home invasions all over the place. Things are going to get worse and worse and worse for you. And given an economic collapse, I see precious few places in England that will be safe. The safe places will be where people are self-sufficient and own repeating rifles and shotguns -- whether legally owned or not.

    Or just ignore what is happening. Pretend it all away. My country, my dad, my uncles came to your rescue during the 1940's. Don't plan on us bailing you out again.
     
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  31. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    In the 1940's my family lived in Ireland which was neutral Old Geezer.
    Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups....
     
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  32. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Lonewolf the sheeple have no real chance of survival. In the short term, the people that I am talking about are going to thrive. Think of it like this...If the shepherds all leave and there is no one to care for and protect them they will do fine UNTIL the wolves find them. Without the protection of the shepherd, the wolves will decimate their numbers.

    The kind of predatory people that I am mostly talking about will, at first, just go house to house taking what they want and killing any that resist and many that don't. As long as there is anything to eat in the cities they will survive. At first, to a predatory person, the fall will be like a party. they will be mostly free to rape, murder and steal whatever they want with very little concern of repercussions. To them, the sheeple will be nothing but prey.

    The situation that I referred to above has to do with what happens when the resources of the cities are all gone and the cities have mostly burned to the ground. When the "wolves" leave the cities and try to move out into the other areas they will run into the survivors. Wolves do fine as long as their prey doesn't have the will to fight. The survivors that are left are going to fight.

    Eventually, the worst of the predators are going to be killed. those that live by the sword die by the sword. The problem is that predators come in many shapes and natures. In most places, the wolves have been almost wiped out but the foxes 1stile thrive. The human foxes won't act like rampaging killers but they nonetheless will prey on people. They are not going to work and take care of themselves. they are going to rob and steal and their kills will be in smaller numbers.

    The big predators are easy. After things settle a little bit the survivors will kill them in self-defense. The lesser ones will require a different way to deal with them. I know that when someone goes into a store, bank or home with a gun and robs the place at gunpoint they are treated differently by the law than the burglar that sneaks in at night and steals your stuff. The thing is though you are no less damaged by the loss.

    What do you do with that lesser thief if you catch him? what about the second time you catch him? You don't have the resources to put him in jail and support him. He isn't a wolf but he is bleeding you with his robberies.

    Most criminals are basically antisocial and many are straight up psychopaths. They don't seem to have the kind of empathy that people consider normal. They will hurt you and feel nothing. Many can't really understand why people are mad at them and when asked why they did their crime, whether it is theft or murder, They will look at you like you are sort of dumb and tell you that they wanted it, if it is a theft or some version of "They didn't do what I wanted them to do and annoyed me.", if it is murder.

    You can do whatever you want to do but you can't change this basic nature. Most of the people in the prisons have been there before and will be there again. When they give someone 15 years for manslaughter and then turn them loose you can bet that they are likely to be back and maybe someone else died. Recidivism in prisons is sky high. It is mostly the same people doing the same things over and over. The cost of locking them up and providing for them is HUGE. The cost in pain and misery that these people spread in their "vacation time" out in the freeworld between stays in prison is unbelievable.

    We live in relatively rich countries and cultures. We can afford to allow and pay for this. When people are living almost hand to mouth WHO will pay the bills to "care and provide for" these people and have the time to guard them so they can't hurt anyone else.

    I'm a country boy. We kill foxes... The mountain lions, grizzly bears, and wolves were taken care of a long time ago.
     
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  33. TENNGRIZZ

    TENNGRIZZ Expert Member
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    In most big cities , state and national capitols which are nothing more than Social/Communist Slave Plantations there really is not much rule of law now has it is and its been that way for about 40 years at least it is the elephant in the room few conservatives and no libtards want to talk about either. JMHO and S/FI!
     
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  34. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    you have to remember in the UK 2 out of every 3 people are obese and diabetis is on the rise, this is a country where people on average don't walk when they can drive, just how far do you think they will WALK post SHTF? the one thing to my advantage is that I am hundreds and hundreds of miles from a big city.
     
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  35. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    Wow!!!!
    by Ystranc

    This sounds like what the rabid mobs including the Media are trying to do to this sitting President here in America because he is definitely different from them and their expectations/beliefs/religion.




    And here by lonewolf......think this through carefully....very very carefully.....


    With the current and obvious "Fallen " state of our body politic as well as the body politic in many other nations.....this could very well define the Body Politic itself...functioning as a separate royal class and obviously trying to protect their interests....their turf...while trying to "Herd" the common people.

    As I stated....earlier...this appears to be what the "Vigilante" mobs are attempting to do to our sitting President because he is obviously not carrying the water for their "Feudal/Royal/Separate class to keep and maintain power over the "Herd!!"
    He is not one of them. He was never supposed to win in a rigged political system.

    And Brexit is precisely the same....a type of inside feudal mob rule...vigilante justice...holding the UK hostage and in bondage to others....and for someone else's profit/power.


    Do you folks in the UK have any remaining Oliver Cromwells??? I think he was sometimes called..."The Ironsides" because he had to live in armor to prevent assassination.


    We could sure use some here in America.



    It is interesting to me that many do not see mob rule taking place right in front of them ..and often operating under the law..or even "The Colour of Law."

    Since I have come to learn...I have hated that term..or wording..."Colour of Law." What is wrong with the Law...that one needs resort to "The Colour of Law???"


    There are times when you pick up the rug and look underneath ...you can detect that there is little difference in what has become of Politics and criminality. WROL?????


    My non Ishmaelite .02

    Watcherchris
     
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  36. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I guess that even after the collapse most people still will be more worried about the poor criminals and murderers than stupid people that work and try to live peacefully. If this is the case we should just save them the trouble of killing us and eat a bullet when the cops are not there anymore to legally catch and coddle them.

    Those that will refuse to defend themselves and their property might as well not bother to even try and survive. Might makes right may not be nice but that is the way it goes when there is nobody to protect the weak and force the evil to leave them alone. When the evil kills someone all they have to do is blame the victim and since there is only one person telling the story they must be in the right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  37. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    Took one of my 50cc
    scooters out on the road today...as it had been sitting for about a couple of months in the garage. Time to knock the arthritis out of it by putting it on the road.

    I was carrying in my back pocket...a plastic wallet case with 18 rounds of .357 Magnum ammo...
    In my front shirt front pockets I was carrying two speed loaders in each pocket in .357 Magnum. Total four speed loaders.

    In my pancake holster on my hip was my Ruger GP 100 revolver again in .357Magnum.


    Not looking for any trouble....definitely. I just want to be left alone. I don't care for two legged wildlife.

    While I was out I visited my lady friends grave who passed last Feburary and also my parents grave....and scooted home.

    It was a good ride to get the arthritis knocked out of my scooter after parking it in the garage for a couple of months.

    But I did forget to stop and pick up some milk. I'll get that n the next trip.;

    I carry this same load out often in my car or in my pick up...for two legged wildlife. One hopes one never has to use it.
    Most of the time I prefer a wheel gun...though I also have a S&W .40 cal. or sometimes switch out with a 1911.

    While I am not keen on vigilantism....if there is no law .....people do tend to take care of things themselves....going way back into history.

    It is a thin line to becoming two legged wildlife ones self under Vigilantism...but the two legged wildlife do get the message and tend to seek easier pickings.


    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  38. TENNGRIZZ

    TENNGRIZZ Expert Member
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    Vigilante's and Democratic Socialism is mob rule and doomed to failure no matter how you slice it or try and sugar coat it , civilizations who accept this kind of nonsense deserve whatever fate has in store for them. JMHO
     
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  39. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    I suspect that at times the difference is that most people who wind up resorting to vigilantism when it becomes WROL.....do not tend to do this as a career. When their anger is spent it is spent.....and they return to their normal lives.

    It is different with a career politician and or career criminal...and it is seldom that Public Education or even Public religion are want to teach this line of thought...to the ordinary people.

    And I find it interesting that those who have tried to teach people to recognize this pattern in career politicians and or criminals often have wound up in jails or worse....for exposing this Ishmaelite pattern of operation going on all around us.

    I sometimes think of this Snowden fellow or this other fellow kept in an Embassy for so many years seeking shelter from government/governments for exposing them.

    There is much much more to these peoples stories than meets the eye. Ishmaelites at work.

    I have known several others back into history who have met similar fates for speaking Truth.


    My non Ishmaelite .02,
    Watcherchris
     
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    1. Ystranc
      It wasn't Snowdon who hid in the Ecuadorian embassy, he faced the music and is now becoming a she. It must be Julian Assange that you meant.
       
      Ystranc, Apr 19, 2019
  40. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    vigilantism is a one off reply to a single problem, to one "bad egg" not obeying the rules, or at least is should be. if its more than that then something more long term needs to be done.
     
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  41. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    OK, vigilantism is when a person or people take the law into their hands and illegally deal with a problem.

    Dictionary definition
    vig·i·lan·tism
    [ˌvijəˈlan(t)(ē)ˌizəm]
    NOUN
    1. law enforcement undertaken without legal authority by a self-appointed group of people.
    We here are not talking about vigilantism in any way. What we are talking about is WHAT SHOULD WE DO WHEN THERE IS NO LONGER ANY LEGAL ATHORITY TO TURN TO?

    Should we just lay down and let the criminals rape, rob and murder us because the cops and courts no longer exist??? If that is what someone thinks they won't last long. To call defending yourself vigilantism is a common liberal belief. The liberals are going to die as soon as their protectors are gone. I don't plan on being one of them.

    Criminals are people that will not work. They rather prefer to TAKE whatever they want from people stupid enough to work. If you resist they will beat you nearly to death or just kill you and laugh about your stupidity. The sad reality is that we have never found a way to successfulyand dependably rehabilitate these people.

    SO, if you don't think that people have the right to kill hard core criminals when there are no cops to call or legal systems to put them up and suffort them what do you propose be done about them??? This is a life or death decission. Who dies?
     
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  42. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    No Tex, I don't believe anyone has said that you can't defend yourself or any another person, I'm not claiming that we should imprison or try to rehabilitate them, justice in any WROL situation would obviously have to mean a Capitol sentence or banishment, I've nothing against them being subject to justice just as long as they receive justice.
     
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  43. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    imprisonment in a post SHTF situation would be a waste of labour even if you had a suitable building they couldn't escape from and guarding them would be more wasted labour which you probably couldn't afford.
    still I think unless one is in the middle of a big city post collapse there will be little use for such things. most people in groups will do what is required of them to get fed.
     
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  44. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Expert Member
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    The Snowden referred to earlier was Edward Snowden. He was an American contractor working for the National Security Agency, who leaked classified information. He was living in Hawaii. Went to China to leak the information; then was given asylum in Russia. The jury is still out on whether he was a whistleblower, exposing the truth, or a traitor, and a spy.
     
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  45. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    when I worked for the Post Office now British Telecom we had to sign something called The Official Secrets Act, i'm sure your government has something similar.
     
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  46. poltiregist

    poltiregist Expert Member
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    Anybody ever heard of the Ku Klux Klan . The head quarters of the largest klan group in the U.S. is only about seven miles from my retreat . Us hill folks know our neighbors and associate with each other .I have even been to the Grand Dragons home to eat breakfast with him . His wife can cook the best bisquets I have ever ate . Lots of people are afraid to venture into this area because of the reputation of the Klan taking the law into their own hands . I couldn't think of a worser place for some fool to mess up in, in an post S.H.T.F. event . Some might find this of interest , they also are preppers for the apocalypse and conduct survival training .
     
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  47. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Had the USA not bailed-out England during WWII, Germany would have occupied all of the islands and land masses of Great Britain, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, the whole of that section of planet Earth and the waters in and adjacent to.

    Today, Gr.Britain and Europe have a much greater population than back then. No place therein will be safe unless they are armed to the teeth and possess large supplies of ammunition. Even rural areas of America are becoming vulnerable and thus must be armed.
     
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  48. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    I believe the rural area's of America has always been armed. Maybe just a little bit better now.
     
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  49. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Hopefully more ammunition has been stored back by the Heartlanders. I see evidence of this at gun shows.

    Heartlanders have been made more political. This because of the attacks made by the urbanites' political goons in congress.

    If the religious tenets of the Left are true, then Goddess Gaia will shake off of Herself several billion humans living in the coastal urban areas. These folk supposedly through their burning of fossil fuels set off global warming. Even the magic electric cars are fueled with coal and natural gas generators. Windmills and solar cells can't even begin to touch the demanded levels of electricity and NEVER will.

    Let Gaia remove the billions of vermin. Let vigilant people take care of themselves in the continental interiors.
     
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  50. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    absolute rubbish, that might be what most Americans think but it is incorrect, by the time the US decided to enter the war, only after Japan had bombed Pearl Harbour, the "battle of Britain" was long over and Hitler had turned his face towards the eastern front and Russia.
    there wasn't a single American boot on British soil until early 1944 in the run up to D Day.
    and whats that got to do with vigilantism? that was a war not some ILLEGAL form of "law" enforcement.
     
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