What Is An Effective Range For Shotgun Slugs?

Discussion in 'Guns' started by branchd77, Oct 8, 2017.

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  1. branchd77

    branchd77 Administrator Staff Member Gold Supporter
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    I was considering buying a new shotgun and loading up on some ammo. I know most 12 gauge ammo is only good for short range, but I was wondering about everyone's experience with slugs and range. Maybe a particular brand or even a specific shotgun I should try to get. Any thoughts?
     
  2. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I like the Mossberg 500 or the Remington 870 pump shotguns because they are absolutely dependable and there are all sorts of barrels, stocks and accessories you can get for them. I have three Mossberg 500s and about 6 barrels for them. I would like to add one more. For slugs I have a smooth bore 22" with open rifle sights and would like to add a rifled barrel but don't really need that here.

    With a smooth bore and regular slugs you need to try and keep it under 75 yards because they are not at all aerodynamic and lose velocity fast. At that range you don't really need a scope and the advantage of the smooth bore is that it shoots buckshot as well. NOW, they make saboted slugs that make it a totally different ball game and with those you will want a rifled barrel with a scope. They will have good accuracy and lethal levels of power out to 200 yards. I live in a very wooded area and most shots would be under a hundred yards so I really don't need a rifled barrel or scope...but I want one!

    Buckshot is for under 50 yards. Something that you need to understand about shotguns is the FACTS concerning magnums and such. Generally speaking the only difference between a magnum shell and a non-magnum shell is the weight of the load. A magnum only has more reach because it is throwing more shot. The 3 1/2" magnums are for steel shot and their reach is not as good as the same size lead shot.

    The problem is that a round ball has a pretty crappy ballistic coefficient and looses speed fast and the faster it starts out the faster it loses speed so that by the time your shot is 40 yards out, even if it started out faster, a magnum load is moving no faster than a standard load. After trying that the various manufacturers stopped trying to pump up the speed and stopped beating shotguns to pieces for no real gain.

    My next go to shotgun is a double barrel. I have hunted with them for most of my life and have three. They are simple machines, easy to repair if they break which they almost never do and a pleasure to carry. They also have a rather large intimidation factor when you point one at someone or even several someones. They aren't great for slugs but will throw them out there.
     
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  3. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Just out to the range like 3 weeks / month ago to address this very issue. The rifled barrel on my slug pump 20 ga. made not just a "big" difference, it was a "this works" solution. I sh##est thou not, I shot a 2" group at 100 yards with a right eye that has had a cataract removed. Used Federal $expensive$ brass saboted 250 grain brass slugs out a 870 Remington rifled barrel w/iron sights. A fellow sat behind me watching me do this.

    Target is behind me in my home's office, it shows shots stringing vertically. Took me a bit to figure out height adjustment vertically -- still, it shot pretty dang flat at short range, 100 yrd. Light pump 20 ga = real recoil; narrow stock stings. Federal bills this as 250 grainer @ 1800 ft/sec. These puppies are too expensive, yet I was transformed into a little boy again. I have me a "big bore" .60+ caliber rifle. In some earlier post I mentioned that I viewed videos of these 20 ga slugs killing white tail deer where they stood.

    In my Mossberg, Brenneke slugs went all over God's creation out a smooth-bore open cylinder. Just did, truth. Let me say that inside a house, intruder better be right by his Maker.

    Side point: Mossberg forends rattle. Remington 870 pumps rattle FAR less than do Mossberg 500 shotguns. Just 5yr back, bought me some early version of one of Browning's earlier designs and I love it so! Cheap little 20, but it is slick and fits me like Mommy Nature built it for me. Got it soooooo cheap, praised by God! No finish on it what to speak of ... so what! Him so loves it!
     
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  4. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I am seriously thinking about getting another 20 gauge pump. They are so nice to shoot and the 20 gauge recoil is totally easy on old arthritic shoulders. I've never been very bothered by recoil but now days because of arthritis I can go out and shoot a couple boxes of 12 gauge shells and will FEEL it for a couple of days.
     
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  5. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Those slugs I was talking about were Hornady, not Federal. My old brain is getting crispy.

    My Rem 870 pump is light in weight, therefore with these .45 cal., 250 gr brass slugs at 1800 ft/sec, it recoils royally. The stock is rather narrow, also. I did go through a bunch of buckshot, including 3" mag and regular Brenneke slugs, true; but still, firing those Hornady brass saboted slugs caused that little pump to say "Hello!" to my shoulder.

    I've never fired a 20 gauge out of a semi-auto. That could be much less punishing and there are some really fine-looking shotguns out there in 2o config. I like a sleek profile on a shotgun; pretty pretty pretty. The men in my family had a thing for pretty women and fancy firearms. As a boy, I remember all these guys with nickel-plated revolvers in their back pockets and waistlines. Pap carried his, cross-draw.
     
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  6. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I like to hunt with a pretty little 20 ga double barrel. I started out with a Savage 20 ga single then moved to a 20 ga pump. Then went 12 ga auto for ducks and a double for quail then eventually Mossbergs for defense and slugs. My smooth bore slug barrel actually throws a better group off a bench than I can shoot off hand in the field so out to nearly a hundred yards I can place a slug in the kill zone on a deer.

    Cross draw holsters is what got me seriously into leather work. I had made a few belts and a couple of rather primitive knife sheaths but nothing very challenging. I was carrying a gun a lot back then and when you were in a car you had to wear a high rise cop holster. It was a beast to try and draw while sitting so I wanted a cross draw holster. Lordy those things were expensive and I had a lot more time than I did money so I decided to make my own.

    Cross draw was just massively more comfortable and easy to get into action from a sitting position and actually more concealed when up with a coat on. A standard draw is close to vertical while a cross draw is twisted at about a 45 degree angle so it is riding higher without the grip being higher. I ended up making quite a few for friends and people that notice them as the gun ranges. They were simple thumb break holsters that were molded to you specific gun. Not fancy but tough and functional as hell. I still carry my Ruger 357 mag cross draw. In the woods I carried my Blackhawk in a flap topped cross draw old military style holster that I made.
     
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  7. Bishop

    Bishop Master Survivalist
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    A family friend killed his grand dad with one number one buck shot pellet a tep hundred eighty feet in a hunting accident a good bolt action slug gun will hold a tight group out to 150 yards
     
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  8. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    For me, cross-draw matches how God made me -- and yes, at 45 degrees. Too, it is more difficult for someone to come up from behind you and steal your weapon if you are carrying cross-draw.
     
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  9. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I have only used an old single barrel 12 gauge with slugs & found it accurate out to 50 paces. Using round ball in my flintlock 20 gauge is about the same, 50 paces. Quite far enough. My hunting distance is usually anywhere from point blank to 25 paces at most.
    Keith.
     
  10. Tom Williams

    Tom Williams Moderator Staff Member
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    Smooth boar with round pumkin ball 50-60yards with sabath slug 70-75 rifled barrel with round ball 80yards sabath slug 125-150 yards with ammo youget what you pay for i use federal prem in all my guns i watch for sales buy in bulk 1000 rounds at a time federal ammo works fantastic is cleaner burning than imported ammo made overseas reloading is the same buy good compoments and find what works best
     
  11. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Another plus to cross draw holsters is that they are not bothered by seat belts. Also when someone looks in the car or truck they can't see your gun. In general I just prefer that form of carry for several reasons. Part of it may be that though I generally prefer to shoot right handed, I am nonetheless left handed and not averse to drawing a cross draw with my left hand. Another thing is that because the gun is at an angle it actually seems to me to fit my body shape better when I am sitting or squatting.

    I often prefer to carry my pistol gripped pump shotgun cross draw as well over my left shoulder barrel down unless I already have a handgun on that hip. I have a stock with a pistol grip on it. I'm not especially fond of just a pistol grip except for in my truck so I can swing it. For that kind of thing you don't need a stock because you are probably trying to shoot something that is real close and maybe trying to get in the truck with you.

    I have several stocks for my mossberg 500s. That will allow me to adapt my weapon to different situations. I am currently trying to figure out how to add a bayonet to it. Shotguns are at their best in up close use. If something gets too close I can envision a bayonet being handy. If nothing else it should add to the intimidation factor. I like sharp pointy things anyway and if it makes me feel happy then it is a good thing! LOL...
     
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  12. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Bayonet lug for securing M7 & M9 Bayonets:
    https://www.ncstar.com/optics-acc/mounts/shotgun-mounts/mshbaymos-bayonet-mount-for-mossberg-500

    I think the above requires the pump to have already had installed an extended magazine tube.

    https://www.combathunting.com/Mossb...al_Rails_And_Sling_Stud_Fits_1_Mag_Tubes.html

    For the 590
    https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/a-fun-mossberg-500-modification.198813/
     
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  13. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    THAT is exactly what I was looking for!! My Mossberg Defender comes with the long tube and a 20" barrel to accommodate the increased shell capacity!! THANKS!!
     
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  14. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Have you seen the silenced mossberg 500, my gun dealer is trying to sell me the 3 shell 12gauge version.
     
  15. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    How big is that thing!! I know that current technology is shrinking them but a 12 ga would have to be a big silencer!! Would you also have to go to a slightly lighter loads to get subsonic? Shotguns are right at the edge of the speed of sound 1125 FPS and lots of shotgun shells are around 1400 FPS.

    I'm not big on silencers. In a combat situation I think that the sound is unnerving to an inexperienced person. Besides all else it is too late to save my hearing and besides I'm like a kid and like the bang.
     
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  16. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  17. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    TexDanm, this gun has a big fat barrel on it but it seems to be light enough, even if it is far from silent (only moderated) but you can use subsonic rounds with it to make it quieter still. This isn't such a big deal as most people think, most shotgun shells don't achieve much more then 1200fps at best (most of them much less but I'm guessing the ones that you mention at 1400fps are 3") while the subsonic shells produce speeds of just under 1050fps. Not a massive difference but it takes some getting used to.
    Noise is a bigger consideration in the UK, there are simply too many people, even in my area which is the least populated county in Wales. Since I do most of my shooting around dawn I have to try to be considerate to all the lazy folks who are still in their beds. I'm not thinking of buying this as a weapon, more for pest control. It can't be used as a sporting gun either, they're two shots maximum over here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
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  18. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I think I understand better now why you might want one. We just live in such a different environment that things that we each take as sort of common knowledge just isn't. Where I live the sound of gunfire is just sort of like traffic sounds and usually hardly is noticed. I live in the country and here shooting, just for fun, is common. Then, especially this time of the year, you have the people sighting in their deer rifles and also the sound of hunters shooting. Using a suppressor so it wouldn't bother neighbors is just not a consideration because for us the sound of gunfire isn't disturbing and notable when you do hear it.

    Shotguns, even when loaded hot to around 14oofps probably drop to subsonic almost as soon as they leave the barrel. A lot is going to be lost as the wad peels off and the shot starts to spread. Like you say though, dropping the muzzle velocity to the area of 1050 would make absolutely no difference 30 or 40 yards down range. Round projectiles are not very aerodynamic and the pressure of the air resistance increases in a geometric way such that faster loads slow down faster than loads that started out slower.

    People usually think that 3" magnum loads means that they are moving at a higher velocity and will have more reach. The truth is that there is no advantage at all of loads that have a muzzle velocity over about 13oo fps and so the "magnum" part of longer shells is simply that it is throwing more shot. If you want or need a little more reach then go up a shot size but even that is mostly only a very minor advantage if any.

    When I used to hunt ducks I used #6 shot regardless of the distance. At a distance a clean drop usually came from a hit in the head or upper neck and more pellets gave you a better chance of this sort of hit and usually didn't cause the duck much trouble if he got peppered in the body. I wasn't big on long distance pass shooting. I didn't have a dog so finding a downed bird out in the tall grass or in the water was just more trouble than I wanted to go to for a duck and I just HATE to kill or injure an animal and not find it or eat it.
     
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  19. Tom Williams

    Tom Williams Moderator Staff Member
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    In house shooting is going to be up close feet away not yards so use lighter loads hard hitting turkey loads in 2 3/4 or 3 in shells with 4-6 size pellets threw a full choke will put down any man hard. For hunting small game i use 2 3/4 in 7 1/2 shot size threw improved cylinder choke ducks geese i use 3 1/2 in steel shot in t size shot trukey i use 3 1/2in 6 shot threw extra full choke deer and larger i use a rifle
     
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  20. Schattentarn

    Schattentarn Expert Member
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    I may have to move to bear country. Not black bears, brown bears and they scare the hell out of me. So, what about a bear gun? Two choices, a 47-50 or a pump action shotgun shooting slugs.

    What is effective bear range for slugs with a 12 gauge pump shotgun?
     
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  21. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Very interested in knowing this too. Good question.
     
  22. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    100 yards is considered the range for a regular 12 gauge slug but some of the sabot slug rounds are good out to 2oo yards especially if they are fired in a rifled barrel with a scope they can place a BIG bullet easily for a perfect kill shot. A sabot slug is a BIG rifle bullet wrapped in a tight plastic wad that pops off as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel. I have seen one ragged hole groups out past 150 yards at the range a lot of times. My slug barrel has rifle sights but is smooth bored so I limit my shots to less than a hundred yards. rifle bullets are pointed and sometimes boat-tailed and a LOT more aerodynamic than a flat-nosed slug.
     
    1. TMT Tactical
      Good info and good to know. Thanks TD.
       
      TMT Tactical, Aug 9, 2020
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    2. Old Geezer
      Using Hornady SST sabot 20 ga; 250 gr bullet/ .45 cal.; I get 3" group at 100 yrds, open sights, Rem 870.
      https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/20-ga-sst-slug-250-gr-sst#!/
      S.Appalachia, mountain forests, there's just not any distance shots. Deer and bear are small. Survivalist-wise, that brass slug with that sort of energy lets you engage an enemy through walls. Sometimes you gotta shoot through heavy flooring and ceilings. If a wall stud gets in the way, no problem. Gotta keep in mind that you can't just wound with these. Touch a humerus, arm comes off. Touch a femur, leg comes off.
       
      Old Geezer, Aug 18, 2020
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  23. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    Exactly "WHAT" do you mean by the word "Effective".....??? I personally do not want to be hit by a 12 ga. "slug" fired from 500 yards, impacting my body.

    Now if by effective you mean sub 3" groups at 100 yards.....? There are is a international special shooting event that answers this. But it requires more then a $299.99 smooth bore, general production firearm. But they do actually shoot sub one MOA. Much to many internet experts disbelief, and frustration.

    So what does effective mean to you in this situation you propose.....???
     
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  24. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Effective means the distance in which your accuracy will allow you to place your shot in a lethal area. It also means the range at which the projectile still as sufficient speed and power to penetrate deep and cause a lethal wound. I don't want to be shot with a BB gun or pellet rifle but if you shoot me with one thinking that it will prevent me from killing you, you will be sadly mistaken. Whether you are shooting a man or a bear your intention should be a swift and certain death and not just a very angry person or bear coming to get you. Effective means that your target will be taken down and out as long as you place your shot correctly. That means that the effective distance has at least as much to do with your REAL ability and not just the bullet that you are throwing. I know a lot of people that can't hit the broad side of a barn at distances beyond 50 yards unless they have the weapon on a shooting bench with bags to support it. You need to base your effective range on what you can do standing and unsupported. Then you can add to that as you assume other positions. Bears have thick hides and hard skulls. A distance that might be fine for a little White Tail deer will possibly only piss a bear off.
     
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  25. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Another thing to consider with a bear is the angle you have on them. If they are head down and coming right straight at you head down a headshot may skip off only giving it a headache. There are a few things that you can consider on a bear that wouldn't be as good on a human with a gun. A straight-on shot is hard to take a bear down with one shot. BUT if they are not right on top of you you can consider a shoulder shot or an upper leg shot to slow it down and maybe put it down and offer you a better kill shot. With a bear, you just want to stop it from getting close enough to you to harm. you. A slug in the shoulder will drop them on their face. They will get back up but that process will probably get their head up or offer you a side shot. OR you can take the other shoulder and then walk up and offer it a coup de gras. Then you can clean out your drawers and take a piss if you have not done that already.
     
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  26. wally

    wally Expert Member
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    about 100 yards....hikock45 on youtube was hitting targets at 200 yards though i believe...
     
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  27. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    let me say this, i my humble opinion
    a shot gun is only accurate to 50 yards, Yes you can be more accurate on the range with bench rest conditions, but in the field at a moments notice you are lucky to shoot a 4 inch group at 50 yards remember in hunting it is going to be a off hand stance . who among us is that good . To shoot a buck you must be able to put a shot in the heart lung area or else it is just wounding a fine animal that will die off in the woods, shot guns slugs are for wooded areas .
    If you want to hunt wide open spaces get a bolt action with scope .
     
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  28. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    You are speaking as to the effectiveness of the shooters skill.......which is a whole different subject then the effectiveness of the tool.
     
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  29. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    This is more MYTH then reality.
     
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  30. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    The thickness of the skull and the angle that skull presents to the shooter. Tex brought up the horrible circumstance of an otherwise lazy bear coming to think of you as an opponent. Now, Mr. Bear is coming straight at you with his head down. The bear's thick skull at that angle may not permit a projectile to penetrate. Uh oh!

    https://bear.org/skull-of-a-black-bear/


    Shooing-off bears may not be a super-smart idea. If you do, do so from your truck -- hopefully your truck is big. Getting out of your truck and shushing a bear is ... hmmm ... uhhhh ... well, maybe you shouldn't do that. Me, cold day in hell I'd be going out shushing bears.



    Down ...... but not for the count.

    Once as a kid (8 or 9 years old), a friend and I were in a cow pasture walking towards the barn. Unbeknownst to me, a calf was on the other side of that barn. The calf's mom did know where her calf was. She did not like our travel vector. She came for us. The barbed wire fences prevented us from heading 90% out of path. We then saw the calf and kept on truckin' right past it. Two young boys in the American South set some new land speed record that day. No one with a camera nor stopwatch were nearby, yet I'm certain that we achieved near mach 1 velocities. My lungs grew larger that day.
    .
     
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  31. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    Great video Geezer and great story. Your speeds evidently why you can claim the title of "Old".

    From my house I can't get a shot much over 100 yards. This is the round chambered in my shotgun.
    https://www.ddupleks.com

    I use the Hexolit 32 followed by 00 Buck. This is adequate for all threats my neighbourhood which are bear, moose, and two legged rats.

    I've heard it is best to break the shoulder joint of a bear to make it immobile. I'm not a good enough shot to accomplish that with a charging anything. P.S. Bears are fast, when they want to be.
     
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  32. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    A black bears skull is approximately 0.2 inches thick in the structure covering the brain and a brown bears skull (subspecies dependent) is anywhere between 0.4 to 0.7 inches thick in the structure covering the brain (frontal lobe on both) on adult bears. Shots, from even medium caliber firearms penetrate the skull fairly easily. Penetration is not the problem. Your problem is hitting that small target which is moving similar to a basketball being dribbled and there is a tennis ball on the basketball that is the place you have to hit. Not an easy task even for the best of shooters. When working animal damage control for black bears the individual providing covering fire for the trapper (poor B@st@rd that has to tranquilize the bear) used a 12 Ga. Shotgun with 00 Buckshot. This kills even large black bears (600 lbs +) easily with a head/neck shot placement. These shots were placed usually between 20 to 25 yards. When a bear charges to the end of his foot snare, occasionally they can snap the steel cable or even pull off a couple toes and be free to charge you. Your cover shooter has seconds to shoot before the bear is on you. Not a way to collect a pension. I had 3 shot as the trapper and shot 2 as the shooter. This causes gray hair....quickly. If I'm not hunting bear and only interested in protection, I carry a 12 Ga shotgun. The same setup was carried when working brown bears which I admit to only having very limited experience with. I have trapped 100+ black bears while working.

    The choice is yours.

    Dale
     
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  33. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Always remember that bears run as fast as a horse (35 mph) and can get to that speed in a matter of seconds. Regardless of terrain or vegetation.

    Dale
     
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  34. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    And THAT is why I like to see all of my bears in a cage or on TV. I guess it is what you are raised with. I have swam with gators and snakes all of my life and think nothing of it but once I am out of the water the only animals that I have to look out for are two lgged sort. I even get along with the boar hogs. I LIKE being th top of the food chain!!!
     
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  35. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    You learn quick enough to ALWAYYS mark how far that cable will reach (Then mentally add on the reach of the bear) so your outside that first swipe that every bear, cougar and bobcat does. You also learn to never break eye contact with that bear. The second you do, they will charge. Never seen one not do it.
    I think part of it is where you grow up. The times I worked in gator country I NEVER got used to being around big gators. Working out in the blackwater swamps didn't help that. Don't think about snakes much except for cotton mouths. They have way too much attitude. Never got used to that with them. Too much like cobras or bushmasters.

    Dale
     
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  36. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Here, bears are rare, timber rattlers are here but safety precautions prevent bite, there are some wild hogs but you're just not likely to run into them.

    Out in the wilds here, one must prepare to kill dogs and humans who have gone feral. The feral humans here are mostly white, thus show up rather well. These whites are readily identifiable due to their lack of a forehead height. Don't feel any guilt in dropping them, for you are improving the gene pool. Throw-backs can't be fixed. You could handcuff a social worker on one wrist and a cop on their other wrist and they would still fail in life ... plus injure the social worker and the cop.
    .
     
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  37. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    When I was a kid I used to frog gig out in the swamps at night. I could sell the legs for 50cents a pair to a restaurant plus we had frog legs for Sunday dinner most of the Summer. Back then with minimum wage a $1.50 an hour I made good money for a kid doing that.

    Gators don't normally consider people as part of their diet and cottonmouth moccasins just aren't much of a threat. Their snow wite mouth is used like the rattle on a rattlesnake. they will start striking at you long before they can reach you. The trick is to move fairly slowly when in their territory. The only person that I ever knew to get bit by one was acting a fool and running in the tall grass alongside the water. He stepped on it and it told him in a most certain fashion to get OFF!

    The gators have actually become more dangerous than they used to be in some places. A gator has a brain the size of a peanut. If a bunch of idiots starts feeding the gators they will associate the human shape with food and then occasionally try one sort of by mistake. They KNOW that shape means food somehow. You never hear about gators biting people in east Texas or Louisianna. That is because we EAT THEM!! Gators that make a habit of letting people get close to them end up on the dinner table.

    I have pushed gators out of my way when in water midthigh deep when wading the swamps at night. The only one that I ever had trouble with was one giant in a small private lake on a sulfur field. The people that worked there hunted at night while making their rounds checking on the wells and would skin the rabbits and then feed the guts skins and such to that gator. When they closed the field his free snacks stopped and he wasn't happy about it. He came out of the water and sort of chased me up onto the top of my truck one time when I was fishing out there. After that, I carried a gun when I went out there. He seemed to know what a gun was about and if he got close I could shoot the water anywhere near him and he would leave in a hurry.

    Never worried about critters and would sleep on the ground and never worry. Black bears from what I understand are a little like gators and don't normally see people as food so much as providers of food. Leave their babies alone and they will usually let you back away. The freaking Grizzly and Brown bears along with the Mountain lions look at people as snacks !!!! Our bobcats are pussy cats and no threat. Most animals used to leave people alone. Now everybody thinks wild animals are like Disney critters and our friends. I saw a video the other day where a woman tried to pet a bear. she got out of her car and walked right up to it. She was lucky that all it did was slap the crap out of her! Saw another one recently where a person tried to pet a Buffalo!!

    PS: I'm with you about the dogs and people and always carry a handgun for them. Living n the country we have a lot of dumped dogs that go feral and crazy. they don't last long though. Any dog that comes on my roperty and growls dies.
     
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  38. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    I never really had problems with the gators where I was working. At the time the people in the county in North Carolina where I was doing beaver control, didn't even know gators were in there swamps. Or so they said. The boss gave me a rinky dink little kayak (8 foot long) to work out of and while working the Black River I passed by a dinosaur. That gator was about 14 feet long and it's head looked big enough to me to eat me and the boat. It was sunning on the bank as I drifted by. If it would have blinked, I would have walked on water to the other side and kept running from there. The river was only about 30 foot wide at that point and I was in the center flow. I'd rather fight a black bear than do that again. I had wondered what had been breaking my snares and taking the beavers. Then I knew. I avoided that section of river from then on.

    Occasionally while trapping beaver I would catch small (ish) gators in conibear traps. The little ones were easy to release, but 5 foot long and above, not so much so. That freaking tail HURTS!!! I always figured I'd step on a gator in that black water, so that was always on my mind.

    Had trouble with 2 cottonmouths. One got hung in my hip waders when he bit me. Didn't get into me but swinging around stuck on my leg in the deep swamp, while trying to not fall off of the beavers dam, didn't endear me to he's kind. The second one came out of a beaver dam and started chasing me while I was shooting at him. I killed him just as I fell off of the beaver dam. LOL! Makes for memories.

    Black bear are easy to deal with. I've only had a few bluff charges and only one actual attack. (out of several hundred bear encounters) That was a problem bear that should have already been put down. He was latter.

    Your right about people being stupid. Most of the wildlife/human injuries that I worked were because people are stupid and think the world is like a Disney movie.

    Dale

    FYI - When I encountered that LARGE gator, all I had was a 22LR pistol. Wanted a cannon at that moment.
     
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  39. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    We rent a couple of trailer spaces. A tenant had a black bear out his front door. His dogs went nuts but the bear couldn't care less, he knew they were inside. The bear looked around for food and not finding any ambled off. This was perhaps a hundred yards from our home.
     
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  40. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    LOL! Yea, they do that. This little guy was eating my apples last year in my back yard. Had them on the porch before as well as looking in the windows. LOL! I only mind when they tear stuff up. Last year was the trash cans (chewed them up) and the year before was our bird feeders (they didn't make it.). I fixed the feeder situation. Mounted on a 1.5 inch steel pipe now. It will take a really big bear to tear it down now. I can always use another rug. LOL!

    black bear.jpg

    Thought he was a dog when I walked down to run him off. Don't know who was more surprised, him or me. LOL!

    Dale
     
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  41. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    There was a bear in our neighborhood that would get in a guy's orchard. The thing would break the limbs out the apple trees. But here's the deal, we were living only like five miles from a bear sanctuary. On my wife and our walks, I always had a handgun on me. It wasn't for the bears, it was for dogs.

    Three buckshot loads down into my shotgun tube magazine then begin the slugs. These are not ordinary slugs, they are perfectly flat-faced like giant wadcutters. Such loads cause fountains of blood to be shot out of an animal or person. These do NOT push blood vessels aside, they cut arteries and veins. A creature hit with one of these WILL bleed to death.
     
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  42. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    As I said, Geezer, my first one is a slug. It is steel and at close range it breaks into 7 steel projectiles. At further ranges it opens from the 3/4" hole when it enters, to a 3" hole as it pushes through. Either way it is devastating.
     
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  43. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    End the rioting.

    Ithaca "Mag 10" and Ithaca "Roadblocker" 10 gauge automatic shotguns:

    https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/51/707/two-ithaca-mag-10-semiautomatic-shotguns

    https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=13852

    Now these are some way too expensive shotgun shells! Better to load your own.

    https://gumgullyprovision.com/product/10-gauge-3-1-2-4-buckshot/

    upload_2020-8-23_17-3-26.png

    55 pellets of #4 buckshot (not birdshot)

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002084516?pid=319198

    Now busting a few dozen rounds of this load down a street filled with Antifa arsonists and BLM rioters sure would lower the urban violence!

    ---------------------

    Then, there is 000 buckshot, .35 caliber ball

    10 gauge vs. truck door -- they don't show the door's inside side, shucks.



    https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/213/4/SHOT-000


    ===================================

    Compare with 12 gauge 3 1/2" chamber, extended magazine

    https://guncarrier.com/benelli-novasupernova-price-new-690-price-used-see-below/

    https://www.hinterlandoutfitters.co...-copper-plated-lead-buckshot-rdbx-p-6038.html

    upload_2020-8-23_16-58-25.png

    Here's some sissy little 3 1/2" 12ga loads with their tiny 00 buckshot loads:

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=00+buckshot+12+gauge+3+1/2"&atb=v140-1&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

    ======================================

    Then you got your 8 gauge shotguns ...

    e05991537571edef9d1e661c561ddf78.jpeg
    e05991537571edef9d1e661c561ddf78.jpeg

    ========================================
     
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  44. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Danm, that looks like a shoulder breaker!!! What would you need THAT kind of firepower FOR??? I have fired a 10 ga a few times. Some people use them for highflying goose hunting where I grew up. I'm not at all recoil sensitive but maybe it was the angle that I had to shoot it to aim at passing geese almost right overhead, but honestly there just aren't any geese that I want bad enough to take the beating that thing gave me. I didn't even use 3" mag 12 ga. I preferred a tighter choke and better aiming than putting that cloud of a shot in the air and beating on my body. I guess if I was going hunting giant velociraptors in a jungle a cannon like that might be called for. I hunted ducks with a 20 ga in the swamps most of the time. they were much better eating to me than the migrating ducks. For regular ducks, I used a 1400 Winchester with a long barrel. The long barrel makes me have a smoother swing for pass shooting.
     
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  45. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Me, I'm thinking crowd control. Massive crowd = massive weapons. Wooden crates of shells.

    Me, I like smaller gauge shotguns. Birdshot for birds and squirrels. I do have plenty of buckshot and slugs. But I am at heart a rifleman, through and through.

    Rioters here in this region would be cut to pieces long before they reached my turf. This place will not put up with savages. Plus, I'll likely be back in my home state should the SHTF in a big way. That place will turn into a killing machine should interlopers show up. I am in no way exaggerating. Indeed I keep a license plate for my home state and proof that I was raised there. If things go really bad, my folk will go full military. Guys keep their vests and helmets. Deer hunters are not considered different; everybody owns guns, have hunted, raise gardens, work on their own trucks, are welders, heavy equipment operators, ... The phrase "self-sufficiency" is not called that, it is called "Everbody duz this hyar thang! Whatchu tawkin uhbout?!"

    Friend of mine bought a Winchester pump that had a 3 1/2" chamber. So, we shot some 3 1/2 heavy buckshot loads through this lightweight shotgun. It'll kick the crap out'a you. Me, I have rather wide shoulders so I can easily properly-place a shotgun butt into the meat of my shoulder (my chest is thick with meat, so that also protects me a whole lot; most of the men in my family were monsters, like my dad, but not me, I'm just size "L" in shirts, maybe XL if the sleeve won't go out to my wrists, but that's rare for me to have to buy and then that size just hangs on me / looks funny). However, my friend was too small to be touching-off these magnum shells AND while shooting he once put the shotgun butt out too far, way too far, like on the humerus. Bad move. His shotgun HURT him. I mean it actually could have injured him. That fellow was in pain. We laughed but I was concerned that he might have damaged his arm. No joke.
    .
     
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  46. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I have known people that dislocated their shoulder letting the shotgun ride too far ou on their shoulder while trying to twist around and shoot at a duck that was almost overhead. Even a standard length 12 gauge shell can hurt you if you don't address it correctly. You swing your BODY and not just the gun!!! When you start moving just the gun around chasing a target it is going to eventually land in a bad place on you and at the least bruise you. A lot of times people get hurt for the simple reason that their gun does not fit them. I am a big guy and usually put a pad on my shotguns. This isn't to just cushion my shoulder as much as to lengthen the stock. If you are short or not very wide across the chest you might need to have your stock cut and fit to you. A correct fit makes a huge difference.
     
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    1. Old Geezer
      Great info. Folk should read and understand this info. Folk are going out and simply "buying a gun". I'm pro-gun-ownership, but when I hear about novices "just buying something", I cringe. These folk could be overrun then become a source of weaponry for the enemy.
       
      Old Geezer, Aug 24, 2020
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