What to use for future trade?

Discussion in 'Essential Items' started by TJames13, Jun 13, 2016.

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  1. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    Texdanm,

    I believe this rifle is manufactured in it's later models in .308 but back then they were trying to get 30.06 performance from a shorter brass casing...and came up with the .300 Savage.

    Yes....I understand about the shoulder angle being so steep. In a bit of irony TexDanm....that seems to be what they are doing with so many of these new Magnum...or short magnums as they are called. They are repeating history.

    Shorter fatter cases and steeper shoulder angles. A lot of the Ackley cartridge wildcats are so.

    To my surprise in reading an online article on reloading the 300 Savage....one author referred to it as the "Original Short Magnum." He had a good point in his reply on that on rifle board.

    I was not aware that this system by Savage had a better lock up than does the standard Winchester lever gun. Thanks.

    Also If I remember what is in the video I watched today ..the later models went away from the rotary magazine and went to box magazines..but the same lever action.

    Nonetheless...I will be keeping my eye out for this type of lever gun at the next gun show. I think the .308 would be very suitable in this caliber...but if brass can be reformed...the 300 Savage will more than suffice.

    Thanks,
    Watcherchris.
     
  2. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  3. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The Winchester 1894 was still basically a black powder action. The 1895 is an entirely different action and can be had in a 30-06. I think the Savage 1899 comes in between these as far as the strength of the action. The max allowed pressures for a 30-30 is 42,000 and the max for a 300 Sav. is 47,000 while the 30-06 being a bolt action designed round has a Max Allowed of 60,000 with the 308 hitting 62,000. The pressures are based on the pressures of the rifles that they were originally designed for and not the actual pressures that the new rifles can handle.

    I also have a Marlin 336 in 30-30. They had and 1894 model too that was basically like Winchesters. The 336 came along in 1948 and was different in that it had a side eject which allowed a top mounted scope where as the old Winchesters had to use a side mounting scope if you wanted one on it. It also got away from the straight stock and moved to the more moden stock shape. For me it is a better fit and is "faster" on target for me than the straight stock whether it is on a Winchester or a Marlin 1894.

    The Early 300 savages had a bunch of things going for it that have been revisited. That rotary magazine was reborn in the Ruger rotary magazine and the 300 sav sort of morphed into the 308. They couldn't just upload the 200 Savage because if someone put one in an old gun not designed for that sort of pressure it could damage the gun and maybe the shooter.

    They did the same thing with the 357 mag. They made the case .100" longer so if you put it in a 38 special the bullet would be too long and not work. The fact is that the 357 mag was a loading worked up in 38 Special cases and I often loaded 357 loads in a 38 case to limit the space and make it burn in a more consistent fashion offering better accuracy. I would paint the primers with red fingernail polish so I never let anyone else mess with them. Rugers take pressure better than the Colt 357s and the K frame S&Ws. Taurus now is more like the Ruger and I actually shoot these 38 +P+ loads in my Taurus model 85 snub nose.

    It barks and belches fire but gives me 357 mag power in a small package when I load it to moderate 357 mag powder weights with 125 grain half jacketed hollow point bullets and use unique powder and CCI mag primers.
     
  4. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  5. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    TexDanm,

    Ironic about the rotary magazines. And Savage seemed to be ahead of the curve in these innovations but the timing seemed to be a bit off in cartridge development for them to maintain that line of firearms....the Savage 99 series. Other competitors seemed to enter and take their place in popularity.

    I was a bit surprised to find that Ruger now has that Rotary Magazine in .357 Magnum.

    Oh...and I too like Unique powder for a number of calibrations.



    Olde Geezer,

    Thanks for posting that chart.

    If you sit back and read it with history in mind ...you can see where the 300 Savage was Eclipsed by the .308....though the 30.06 had been around for a long time.

    For myself..I like the .35 Remington and sometimes reload it with Heavy pistol bullets...in .357 diameter rather than the 200 grain .358 diameter round nose. These would be 158 grain .357 bullets....that I use in my regular .357 Magnums.

    Someone at work needed cash and sold me their Marlin lever gun in .35 Remington. It is a nice rifle.

    While long range skills are admirable...I tend to like medium to short range tools capable of delivering substantial energy delivery within their range and the .35 Remington falls nicely into this arena.


    My thanks to all for their posts,
    Watcherchris.
     
  6. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    At one time Ruger made a semi automatic 44 mag carbine that looks like a 10-22 on steroids. It also used a rotary magazine. If they had ever come out with it in a 357 mag I would have jumped on it!! Carbines in basically pistol calibers have always been popular but at this time they are sort of out of style.

    If I was big on the auto pistols I would probably just have to have one of those High Point carbines in a matching caliber. I'm thinking about a 45 ACP High Point anyway. There is a reason that the Thompson was so popular for so long.
     
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  7. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    The reason we have the proliferation of centerfire rifle cartridges is due to wildcatters and marginal hunters looking for some magic rifle.

    Wildcatters are OCD; they are no different than stamp collectors looking for some obscure country printing some bizarre postage stamp. "I want my rifle caliber to have this velocity with this pressure, using this case, out of that rifle, using my favorite powder, ... ". If their doctor could find the correct SSRI Rx for them, they would heal somewhat ... maybe ... over time ...

    Magic rifles are off in the land of faeries and talking caterpillars. Oh, and they are not needed. Prior to the year 1900, all calibers needed to kill any animal on Earth had already been developed. And white tail deer only need a 32-40 black powder load to bring them down. If someone really needs to bring down a largish critter at distance, then there is the .270 or if needing a bit more, the 7mm Mag. Heavy game, .338 Win mag to .375 H&H mag. Elephants .458 Win mag, or the H&H brethren, or the .416 Rigby.

    It has all been done. It has all been done over 120 years ago.

    "The initial Swiss Federal Shooting Festival (Eidgenössisches Schützenfest) was held in 1824."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schützenfest
    Rifles of the 1800's were as accurate as anything we have today. We have superior military sniper rifles today, however these caliber/rifle combos are a bit better than that of "back when", not "head and shoulders above". Our optics are better and we have electronic range-finders, yet rest assured that our German ancestors are pointing and laughing at us from the next world.

    If you run into someone wanting a magic rifle, tell him to go learn how to shoot. Tell him to go learn how to hunt.
     
  8. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Some of the Wildcat rounds though have made it into common acceptance. The 22-250 jumps to mind as does the old 25-06.
     
  9. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL...Olde Geezer....

    I busted out laughing and spit out my coffee in reading this....

    Very funny but appropriately true. You have to be on the edge of madness to see such things through ...one caliber after another after another. But some of these olde wildcatters were indeed genius in their fields of development.


    But also agree with what you said about most useful calibers being done over a hundred years ago. Also about learning to shoot and hunt.

    I was astounded in learning about those double rifles ...in very large calibers for hunting large African Game....

    As I recall from reading...the powder was measured in Drams..rather than grains. Very large calibers....black powder if I correctly recall.
    Talk about Hand Cannons. The Thompson Contender series has nothing on those olde guns.


    However...concerning the manufacturers.....

    They seem to be , up to a point, stuck in a kind of time warp. Not that much original or innovative thinking going on.

    What brought me to this conclusion was the realization that so much progress in calibration came from wildcatters.

    The only real innovation I see is the plastic tipped ammunition to use pointed bullets in lever gun tube magazines. But this does nothing per se for new calibers. It is just an updating of an olde concept to make it more useful and I think it is a great idea.

    While I am aware that there have been significant advances in Copper Jacketed Bullets...it has not made cast bullets obsolete among those who know how to use cast or gas checked bullets.

    I guess..what I am trying, somewhat long windily, to say is that the gun manufacturers are now working a great deal on "Planned Obsolescence" much like the razor industry..the car industry...cell phones...etc etc.

    Thanks,
    Watcherchris
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    the trouble with bartering may be finding someone to barter with!! due to the mortality rate among the masses people may be few and far between, at least for some considerable time(think in years, lots of years, not months!) storing up lots of stuff to barter with might not be the ideal thing to do. better to store stuff your actually going to use yourself.
     
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  11. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    I do very much agree with this list. I think the thread itself went a little sideways into an ammunition thread, but let's try to pull it back. Alcohol, and Tobacco would be very beneficial. Those vices are always in demand no matter what happens. More recently personal toiletries and sanitation products are very important. There is a massive shortage in Venezuela, and disease is rampant. I have heard many people are shaving their heads to avoid the lice and bugs. So for me I am stockpiling things like soap, shampoo, toothpaste, toothbrushes, toilet paper. Look around your bathroom and see what you use everyday. It has been mentioned, but Honey is an excellent item to stockpile. It can be used for medicinal purposes. It is a " last forever " food. We are very fortunate to have a neighbor who is a bee keeper. We have lots of honey.

    IMHO old clothes and shoes, old blankets, coats all will be valuable, especially baby and children' sizes. My wife is a terrible hoarder, but in this case I do agree. Those old things may have value, and you might need it some day.

    A couple of other tips I have read along the way about bartering. Never barter from your home. That is a dead give-away that you have supplies. Pick a neutral location to meet. Never go to barter alone. Make sure there are at least two of you, and you are armed. Never say never, but it is highly unlikely I would ever barter ammunition. If you do, you will have to know the person extremely well, and have a confidence level that the ammunition will not come back at you from the barrel of a gun.

    If it is possible to plan for charity or barter you might try to develop a relationship with a local church. When people come begging you would be better served to be able to send them to a church where they can get help, rather than doing something yourself.
     
  12. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    KNOWLEDGE!!! It is precious and can't be stolen from you. In a world where you can't grab a cell phone and google everything people are going to be lost. If you have the answers you will be valuable.
     
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  13. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    I can't think of anything I would want to trade for but if I thought I would need to trade I would stock for trade purposes matches , cigerite lighters , toilet paper , soap and perhaps a can of food . Actually if there was anything I thought I would need I would remedy that shortfall now . But I admit there might be an item I haven't thought of , in that case having trade items would be great to have .
     
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  14. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    I know at least in the US everyone has saw those knife shows on television where they have groups of knives for sale . I bought one for Christmas presents and have a lot of knives left . Knives might be something that would be barterable . I was actually surprised of the high quality of these knives .
     
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  15. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    The way I look at it is, that if I think of trading, I also have to think of what I want in return. If I know what I will want in return, then I purchase that for myself. What do you think are the most important things you are going to need? Medical supplies? Ammo? Why would I not stock these for myself? I am not going to waste money on purchasing cigarettes when they may not get me what I need in trade! I will spend my money making sure I am totally self-sufficient & self-reliant.
    Keith.
     
  16. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Depending on the exact cause and path that a world ending disaster takes there is no way to know what will be of value. If we get wiped out by some sort of bio hazard those that are left that are immune to the toxin will have the plunder of an entire world to harvest for a generation or two at least. Guns are going to be everywhere. By the time people break into all of the local military armories I don't see there being a shortage anywhere in the US.
     
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  17. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    AND here lies the truth of the matter. There is going to be a world (no pun intended) of material for the survivors, both city and rural. Folks will just have to live long enough to be one of the survivors.
     
  18. anon.amus

    anon.amus Well-Known Member
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    salt-to preserve meat

    alcohol-drinking, sterilize things, fuel, clean wounds

    sugar, eat for energy, to make alcohol, can be poured in wounds to prevent infections, grit for cleaning, even to attract bugs, rodents, or other animals to eat, to lessen the effects of the sugar crash that will affect so many in the 1st couple weeks. smoke bombs, explosives, rocket motors, making herbal extracts palatable.
    all 3 can be used in the production of other chemicals

    maybe some copper tubing so people can make their own still-to make their own fresh water and salt from sea water, and your own alcohol-
     
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  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    depending if there is anyone to trade with and if it is safe to do so, it wont be for a long time down the line post catastrophe.
     
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  20. anon.amus

    anon.amus Well-Known Member
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  21. anon.amus

    anon.amus Well-Known Member
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    also seeds and tobacco-tobacco seeds too
     
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  22. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    If I had one hundred thousand dollars, and had to purchase something for trade post SHTF.........I would buy Mountain House Food. If I can't trade it I can use it. 16d common nails would also be on my shortlist.
     
  23. Alaskajohn

    Alaskajohn Master Survivalist
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    I would think handsaw blades, axe heads and handles, and hand tools would have premium value.

    Just looking out in my shed for the items I find essential today being 100 miles away from the nearest store, these include:

    Clevis pins of all sizes
    Eye bolts of all sizes sizes
    Snap hooks
    Slip hooks
    Assorted springs
    Nuts, bolts, screws, nails and washers
    Timber locks
    Bailing wire
    Pullies
    Hose clamps
    Mauls and wedges
    Chisels and files
    Ropes, chains and wires
    Tie down straps
    Cable spray
    WD40
    Lubricants
    Bit drivers
    Manual hand tools

    I could go on, but really those things you need to keep stuff working for survival.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
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  24. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    As far as things go I am holding...

    Books
    Needles
    Thread
    Fishhooks and tackle
    Hand tools
    Saws
    Saw Blades
    Ammo
    Reloading tools
    Hundreds of Knives
    Carving tools
    Hardware like nuts, bolts, screws and nails.
    Bailing wire
    Chemicals
    Gardening tools
    Seeds
    Blankets
    Sheets and material
    Guns
    Axes, Swords, aluminum bats...
    Wire
    Rope
    Cord
    string
    Chain
    Cable
    Pots and Pans
    Cast Iron cook ware
    Drugs
    Glasses
    Coins
    Silver
    Cash
     
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  25. Oddcaliber

    Oddcaliber Active Member
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    Trade and barter goods are find if you have the space for them. These are items that are above and beyond what you already have. My biggest problem is storage space. Where do I store a years supply of......
     
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  26. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    I just looked and this thread goes back to 2016!

    Junk silver coins.

    Also, it is my belief that when .22 ammo went into panic demand, that a certain percentage of those purchases were not for shooting, but to be used as future currency. People thought, "The price of this will never go down!" And they were right. Whenever the government bans something, the price goes up. You can buy whatever type of handgun you wish in Japan, but the prices are super-high. This is why there are so many garage-shop handgun manufacturers in the Philippines, to supply the demand on the black market. Ban guns in America and the same manufacturing will occur. A friend of mine built receivers in his basement, but he did do the BATF paperwork on them.

    Ammo prices will go up when our government bans it. Something to consider for storage. Keep in a cool dry location.

    Junk, so I picked out some site at random. Half dollars have the best silver-content/price ratio. Some buy quarters. A "full bag" means $1000 face value and that is now going for around $15,000 right now; half bag, $500, currently going for $7,500; $100 face = $1,500. Silver in quantity was once quite affordable, but now the prices have exploded. Due to the upcoming dollar crash, there are so many investors and hedge buyers getting into metals (mostly gold) that even the price of junk silver coins has gone nuts. Russia is a gold-producing nation, yet they are actually buying thousands of tons of gold. That is psycho behavior for a gold-producing nation, however they know that fiat currencies worldwide are on the verge of death, plus Russia wants to come up with their own world reserve currency to replace the dollar. Everyone is betting against the dollar, thus these crazy prices.

    Me, I believe that silver is massively under-valued. The dollar is dead. This "conservative" administration is printing into existence trillions of dollars; if the Left comes to power, that's it for the dollar, game over.

    https://sdbullion.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=half+bag+

    Again, the above site I picked at random. I know NOTHING about that company, nothing. Look up the junk price of silver coins, so you'll know where to begin / "does this fit into my budget?". I have found coin stores that go by the daily nationally-listed price. If you are only going to buy only a few coins, then you should find a righteous shop-owner who sells at this standard/listed price.

    Just pick up a few coins hither thither. Back decades ago, I found a guy who would sell me a this or that under-the-table. Lost the guy. He got busted by the tax man. My family has this horrid problem, our connections seem to end up in jail. I swear by the Living God that I'm no d###ed stool pigeon. Lost our car mechanic to the feds (bootlegger got caught, nice guy, nickle in Atlanta).
    .
     
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  27. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I like HARD cash. I am always on the watch for old silver coins at a good price and heavily invested in silver in 2012 when silver cost me 8 dollars an ounce. I also never spend change and have a five-gallon bucket full of small change. Even if everything falls at some point people are going to need some way to do business other than pure barter. Barter is fine for a simple one to one trades but doesn't work for more complex business deals.

    I bought gold in 2012 but got rid of it because it no longer would be useful for this sort of thing. With gold around 1500 dollars an ounce how do you try to buy a few chickens with it? I can't see someone trading a BB-sized piece of gold for a couple of chickens.

    Another thing that will have a huge value will be antibiotics. Without proper medical care, infections will again return to being killers. In the past, people often died of little cuts as small as a shaving nick. The easiest way to cover this is by ordering fish antibiotics. You can get most all of the old school antibiotics in the same doses as you would for people.
     
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  28. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Oddcaliber, I was raised in the prepper, survivalist, Be prepared way of life at a time when, other than the Boy Scouts, nobody was much thinking about this kind of stuff. What that means is that I have had over 50 years to get to where I am now. I had a PLAN and have followed it. I live in a place with a lot of National Forests, lakes, ponds, and is a very conservative area with almost no racial problems.

    Black country folks are little different from white or Hispanic country folks. "lol, When was the last time you saw a Black Cowboy sitting in line at a drive-through fast-food place on a horse?" We even have a ride up Cowboy Church with a rodeo arena that has PRCA rodeos. There seems to be no such thing as a liberal redneck no matter what their skin color. I have a lot of Black friends sand they are as ready to defend our area from the animals as any other people here. We don't ignore skin color here. It just doesn't mean much and is sort of like what color clothes you are wearing.

    I carefully picked where I live and have set up my place over 30 years with survival in mind. I have three acres with two homes, four shops two 24X30 storage sheds one enclosed 15X20 paint room so storage isn't a problem. We have three garden plots fruit trees and the entire place is fenced with an electric gate. There are a small minnow pond and a 1500 gallon sealed cistern that is kept full by water runoff from the roof. We also have a pool and a septic system that requires no electricity. Under both houses, there is a "pillbox" that will allow shooters to cover the entire yard from a bulletproof foxhole.

    Make a plan and work it. If you believe in the apocalypse you need to start and keep adding to your preparations. The most important part of this is AWARENESS and having a plan that is realistic and based on what you have and not what you want. as time passes what you have can grow but having the basics (food, water, shelter, medical stuff, tools, and weapons) and KNOWING how to use them is the first and most important step.
     
    1. Oddcaliber
      I totally understand where you are coming from. I'm an old Boy Scout and Navy veteran who understands being prepared for life's uncertainties. You are very fortunate to have the land you need to do what your heart desires. Me,I'm still stuck in the burbs till I retire than maybe move to a more convenient location to suit my needs. But I don't stop prepping just because there's no room.
       
      Oddcaliber, Jul 12, 2020
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  29. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I can't claim that my situation was all done happily. In part, the move was forced on me by the situation at the time. In 1982 every place that I had ever worked for more than minimum wage went out of business. I was a Machinist with 13 years of experience and in 1982 that became a useless trade as the oil industry and most of the support industries died out. HARD TIMES. No full-time job for over a year.

    Finally, I got a job and put my wife through college loading trucks and working in a Sysco warehouse. When she graduated we left and lost our house. We picked where we went with the long term plans in mind and I worked hard eventually starting my own business. We eventually bought my place, again based on a long term plan.

    It was a hell of a move. It wasn't that it was a move that was so far as it was that we had started accumulating the stuff for an apocalypse and had to move buildings as well as all of our stuff. Once here we started making the changes to make it a secure place and defensible. Eventually, my kids move in on the property with us and they are fully on board with the plan. A long road but it is amazing that where we ended up is almost exacly like the place we had planned for and written down so many decades before.
     
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    1. Dalewick
      TD, Awesome story and you were blessed with a good woman.
       
      Dalewick, Jul 14, 2020
  30. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    not trading or bartering, my post SHTF plan is to stay away from other people and avoid contact of any kind.
    I shall live up to my name.
     
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  31. Max rigger

    Max rigger Expert Member
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    Not sure on this one, if I was starving I'd want a can of beans a lot more than a bit of silver. If its really a SHTF situation gold and silver will have no worth, food, tools, specialist skills will be king I'd have thought. Marijuana would be in demand as well, I might order some seeds online and get growing;) I've never been a tobacco smoker as such but have enjoyed a bong or two from time to time...not for a few years now though.
     
  32. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    in a REAL SHTF situation gold and silver wont be worth anything and I cant see anyone swapping food for money that they could not spend.
    skills may be in demand but only if the worker can get fed in return.
    as for "weed" there will be enough drug addicts around-legal and illegal substances, without adding to their number.
    we are already growing apples, squash and strawberries, later on there will be crab apples and blackberries we can forage, wild mushrooms are already starting to appear.
    potatoes can be grown in bags which dont take up much room, herbs and mint can be grown in a growbag which can be put on a patio or balcony.
     
  33. Max rigger

    Max rigger Expert Member
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    At a guess 99% or more of weed smokers are not addicts, just social users bit like you enjoying a few beers etc.

    I started growing stuff pretty much for the first time this year, been picking strawberries for a few weeks now, herbs doing well, spuds growing in a couple of bin liners which I hope do well but really apart from spuds I've nothing of real food value. I'd have thought post SHTF you need belly fillers like root veg and fruit would be a nice bonus.

    I've just ordered 3 outdoor seeds from a legal UK supplier, bit late in the year so I'll only germinate 1 seed this year, its a West Coast American strain which is perfect for the UK.
     
  34. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    I plan to not need to barter . If I could think of something that we might be in lack of , I would be trying to remedy that shortfall now . If I traded anything it would be most likely to try to help the other person more than myself . I try to be a thorough prepper . We prep like our lives depend on it and have no intention of staking our survivability on something someone else has .
     
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  35. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    yes thats my plan too, if we think we need something we BUY it now not wait for SHTF.
    the trouble with barter goods is they take up too much room which could be used for stuff we actually need.
    the chances of finding someone to barter with in a post SHTF world in an area that has a low population BEFORE the SHTF is going to be nigh on impossible.
     
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  36. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    at last, the penny starts to drop!!LOL:D
     
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  37. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    If the balloons go up and we are returned to cavemen and women, then nothing really matters, certainly not for people like me. If you are a super-athlete with super-robust background genetics, then you will live ... maybe. "Survival of the fittest" and all that. Tribes will be slaughtering other tribes and seeking-out resources however far they must travel to gather / pillage what they need. There are history books concerning.

    Until then, people will be people even during chaos.

    During the building of the bomb, centrifuges used for separating-out heavy uranium could not use copper for it does not conduct electrical current with the efficiency required. So they melted tons of silver coins to make the wiring. Silver is a mega-conductor of electricity at room temperature, it does not require super-cooling. All electronic circuits use silver. The chemical industry requires even more. Water purification systems use silver. Silver is a byproduct of copper mining. Copper mining is down and royally so. Silver content in copper ore is thinning-out. Silver does not spew from the Earth. It is being used but not replenished.

    Before an all-out apocalypse, the dollar will hyperinflate away. People will use barter and coinage, they just will. They have for thousands of years. Gold may become too valuable to hold. Silver has been used for millennia for trade; it can be subdivided into units usable by ordinary people, not just the rich. Silver coins are everywhere (though not in vast supply). Silver will retain its value -- especially when in minted form, thus readily identifiable. And during and after the SHTF, there will be rebuilding. Many areas will slaughter invaders and keep up a semblance of civilization during the worst of times. A cursory glance at history proves this to be true.

    Too, the collectivists wish a cashless society. They want electronic "money" so that all transitions can be tracked. Thus, the need for black market money. Stab Big Brother in the groin, stab him repeatedly.

    https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/06/silver-will-explode-and-fake-money-collapse-like-in-3rd-c/
    .
     
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  38. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    It is obvious that we live in VERY different places and have totally different expectations of what to expect. I expect that unless the disaster is a pandemic with an extremely high mortality rate that where I live will have a pretty high survival rate. Food will only be a problem for idiots and people too lazy to work. There are farms, thousand and thousands of cattle, goats, chickens, pig in the millions and both fish and game. Like I said if you starve you are just too stupid to survive.

    Where I live we are all well armed and gangs from the bigger cities won't survive here. A deer rifle will kill them before they ever get in range to do much with an assault rifle or handgun. That said there are more assault rifles in this little town than there are people.

    When you live out in the country and it is 30 miles or more to a grocery store other than the small country stores you tend to keep a much better-stocked pantry. If the big city mortality rate in big cities is 80 to 90 percent I expect that here it will be fifty percent or better. Most of the deaths will be riffraff and old farts like me. We have food, water and are armed to the teeth.
     
  39. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    It is my hope that rural communities will be the seeds for the regrowth of civilization when the urban areas are destroyed.

    I live where I'm surrounded by agriculture and national forest land is only a half day's walk (and I'm old and gimp).

    There are however too many liberals living here. The town is politically divided.

    We have plans to bug out'a here and into the pure conservative region where I was raised. Actually I can drive to 90% conservative tiny town in ten minutes. The swath of agriculture and forested mountains in this region runs hundreds and hundreds of miles south and north. If only a fraction of the pasture land was converted to the raising veggies, we could supply the entire USA.

    I planted a whole lot less squash this year, however we already have a stack of zucchini in the fridge. We've got preserved squash left over from last year. I love squash bread, so I just hope my palate doesn't burn-out on it. We store cooking oil for frying. Just out in the garden and the tomatoes are starting to come in. My wife's home-made spaghetti sauce is just the best, hope I don't burn-out on that. We store cases of quart jars of noodles (O2-absorber packs tossed in for longevity). Oodles of noodles and rice.

    Guns? More guns than people here, as in Texas. Big gun shows. New gun store 2/10ths of a mile from my place. Bought a new toy there back a fortnight. Deer hunters everywhere. Gardens everywhere. Plant nurseries everywhere (just looked this up out of curiosity, there are 12 nurseries within 12 miles of me). Just found a great small engine repair shop, these too are many in such a region as this. Because this is a little town, commercial corn fields and commercial veggie fields are inside of the municipality.

    This place isn't total Norman Rockwell, but getting there. Where I'm from is a bit on the rough-side for Norman Rockwell. He'd have done fine if within a town boundary. However, get out in the sticks where I'm from and Norm would have had to have been able to pack-up his painting gear and run. People would have surrounded him and started the word that, "They is this hyar city feller a'paintin' pitchers uv the mountains an' he is so good that it'll flat-out take yore breath awayz frum yuh! Git awn over hyar ifn you don't BElieve me!" More and more folk would have surrounded him staring. Deeper into the mountains, Norm would have gotten mean stares and would have heard, "Who is you, an' what in THE hell are you'a doin' hyar! Ain't yore land izit, pretty man?!" Time to go.
    .
     
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  40. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I don't worry about liberals very much. They won't survive for very long. They just don't have a lot of sense and deal with life mostly as if it is as they would like it to be rather than as it is. Near me is one liberal Yankee idiot. He will let his family starve to death if I don't shoot him first. He is one of those that seem to think that everyone owes him something and that if things get bad the government will take care of him and his family. His idea of survival food is a big bag of popcorn and a six-pack of sodas.
     
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    1. Old Geezer
      I hate it that knuckle-draggers and flakes are allowed to vote. That is how they ruin my life.
       
      Old Geezer, Jul 14, 2020
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  41. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    much the same in the UK too, only we call them lumpunts, they live on ready meals and take aways, cant cook-wont cook.
    wont survive once the shops are empty.
     
  42. wally

    wally Expert Member
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    i think everyone is gonna be surprised at the value that people will place on gold and silver WTSHTF...just look at how things were run before 1900.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  43. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    not if there is no where to spend it.
     
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  44. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    I think many of you are missing the point here..


    IN any condition of hardship...whatever is most "Swappable" will become money.

    Money is only a more sophisticated form of Barter..."Swapping."

    Most people and nations in history ....settled on gold, silver, and copper. In some nations iron..some Salt.

    This bag I have here of Olde Combs....may not be particular valuable to my balding pate....but to that fellow in the next village with four daughters and a wife...it may be very valuable....and he may trade some of them off to one of his neighbors with the same requirements...and a woman/women.

    The combs now become used in more than one transaction....this is how money is made...or created..


    Over time....people have settled on gold and silver...copper for the smaller transactions.


    Governments ...historically.... have tended to cheapen the value of the money ...but keep the same amount printed on paper or stamped on the coins.

    This is sometimes referred to as debasing the coinage/monies or if you prefer...."Counterfeiting"


    IF you do not know....pennies before 1982 were copper...since then they are a zinc slug with a copper plating on them.

    It has gotten so bad they are now counterfeiting the pennies...scratch one ....with a knife or screwdriver and see the cheap zinc slug in side dated after 1982.


    Inflation has gotten so bad...it is become expensive to issue coinage...even counterfeit coinage..imagine that.


    If you do not understand of what I am speaking.......


    Back in the early 1980s the Treasury and Federal Reserve came out with pamphlets which stated that it cost, back then, nearly .02 cents to print and issue a one dollar bill.

    At .02 cents ....it represents a mark up of 5000 percent on a one dollar bill because they will give you no silver or gold for it....but we give up 100 cents of our labor to get one.


    But...........................................

    They get $100.00 Bills for the same price and will give you no silver or gold coin for it....

    This represents a 500,000 percent mark up ....as we give up $100 in labor or goods to get one ...versus a$1.00 bill.

    There no way a government making 500,00 percent on a $100.00 dollar bill can possibly be interested in balancing a budget.

    I have known this for over 35 years now...



    This is the nature of the lie and deception going on out here....and it is how so much in our lives and country are being corrupted....by the debasement of our money supply.

    And they want to go to Electronic monies...Wow!!

    All Electronic monies will be is a more efficient way to "Herd" people...

    The truth today is that it costs over 10 cents to print and put into circulation a 1.00 dollar bill....they are going broke....in counterfeiting the monies. Imagine that??

    They are only making some 100,00 to 200,00 percent on the 100 dollar bill. They are going broke...hence the drive to do away with monies and go to a cashless society....electronic monies...total "Herding."

    And now you know the rest of the story.....



    Barter is a very different thing from phony fiat counterfeit monies...in that one agrees with whom one is bartering on the value of a thing..by negotiation. No third party involved..

    Ever bartered for goods at a flea market or yard sale...yes...that is how it is done and some people are very very good at it. How about at a junk yard???


    What ever survives as the most "Swappable" item/items will become money. Remember that.
    Also remember that a good money will also be able to store value over time....a storehouse of value.


    Someone out there does not want Americans to ever be able to think this far......

    But how about those Kardashians...????


    My non Ishmaelite .02,
    Watcherchris
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  45. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    From Watcherchris:
    "What ever survives as the most "Swappable" item/items will become money. Remember that.
    Also remember that a good money will also be able to store value over time....a storehouse of value."

    I am not self-sufficient. I destroyed both of my shoulders such that surgery HAD to be performed, I could not use my right arm. There are skills that I do not possess. Accidents perpetually happen to people. You are in the wild and get a compound/open fracture, now you have a choice, seek medical help or shoot yourself in the head. If you are over 60, the head-shot may be valid, but what if you are age 34?!

    We hear of old hermits who've lived out in the wilds for decades. They are the exception. Most die of injury, some fever, or whatnot. If one is a hermit, then pray that you make no bad errors and that your Karma remains robust.

    I seek out items with which I can barter. I seek out people of quality. Finding golden people is no different than panning for gold -- you toss away a lot of rocks and "fool's gold", but the reward in finding the rare golden nuggets is worth it to me. Finding a reasonably moral community is even a worse bother, yet worth the journey ... to me.
    .
     
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  46. Max rigger

    Max rigger Expert Member
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    Gold/silver are only of use in times of surplus food, when food it tight precious metals are worthless, people can't eat metal. If I was a real prepper I'd be spending money on food fit for long term storage.
     
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  47. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    For whatever reason, Gold, Silver, and, Gemstones have had value for about as long as humans have gathered into groups of over two families. Whether there was famine or an abundance, Has little to do with whether people value it. This is just a fact.

    When times are hard the value of gold and silver may fall but it is the one pure thing that always seems to have value. You are right in that you need to first take care of the basics, food, water, shelter, etc but then some solid things of value may be important. If someone has something that you desperately need and they have plenty of food and the other necessities if all you have is necessities what will you offer for trade?

    I actually have no use for gold really except in the form of jewelry. The price of gold has gone so high that it is too expensive for use in small trading. For that reason, I have mostly limited my stash hoard to hard currency (coins), silver, and jewelry. I sold my gold a little soon but can't complain I sold it for between 4 and 5 times what I bought it at.

    I feel very confident that my family is set for short term survival, 2 or 3 yeas. My preparations have been going for 45 years and have a more long term focus than just surviving the initial fall. People always eventually need some sort of currency. World wide this is true. You just can't carry around large masses of trade goods. That is what real currency is about it represents real assets unlike the print it and throw it out there with no REAL value like our current money.

    There are other things that will have value. Ammunition in the most common calibers will have value after the early runs on the stores run dry. I like 22LR, 38 Special/357mag, 9mm, 223, 308, and 30-30. Some medicines will always have value and that value will rise as it becomes more and more scarce.

    The 90% death rate that I expect in the first year or two doesn't mean that 9 out of 10 people in any area will die. The mortality rate in the big urban areas will be almost total. The death rate in small more isolated areas will be mostly the old and infirm, the idiots, and the trash. That will probably be about 50%. The survivors after the first year will begin to reconnect to others in their area both for mutual support and defense. One person alone will only survive until they get hurt, sick, or found by a group of thieves.

    As they gather they will need a medium of exchange. I think that coins will have more value in any sort of paper money. In the past, people all had a lot of change but in this time of credit and debit cards, that is changing. Nobody carries much in the way of change anymore. It will have value. I expect that eventually, people will mine the ruins for change and hard currencies. Read your primitive history. What did the Native Americans give to "buy" Manhattan island? Wampum Beads, rare seashells, Small pieces of metals that don't corrode, even salt has been used as a currency. Currency is or can be anything that is small, rare, or hard to make and easily carried. I have several things that a couple of years after a fall will have intrinsic value that will be greater than their actual usefulness.
     
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  48. Max rigger

    Max rigger Expert Member
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    I may be wrong but we've never had an event giving a 90% death rate?
     
  49. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Throughout history, precious metals and other rare commodities have been used as trade.

    In small communities, people trade among themselves. During the Black Plague, commerce continued. Gold does not tarnish and silver kills bacteria.

    https://www.silver-colloids.com/history-silver/



    There will be small communities all over the world that will suffer during SHTF events, yet will continue to engage in trade. No human can learn all of the skills needed by other humans. Humans form packs even as do wolves; wolves only thrive when in packs. A pack of wolves can easily bring down deer. Not true of an outcast wolf that must feed on smaller game and carrion. Humans are wired for packs due to our species being easily injured/disabled. We humans repair and support an injured member because that member can often return to usefulness.

    During the 1800s, the shaman's of American Indian tribes returned injured warriors to battle at a higher rate than U.S. Army internists and surgeons. Geronimo was a shaman. He prayed to God and had visions. He knew when the enemy was heading their way. Once when awoken from his sleep by a vision, he told his war party that their base camp had been attacked. When they arrived (3? days later) he was right.

    Smart humans are more robust than rats or roaches. We humans rebuild after all things bad. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rebuilt.

    One Japanese man survived being burned/irradiated during the bombings of BOTH Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Even though he was massively irradiated, he lived to be over 90 years old.

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...c-bombings-both-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-141762
    .
     
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  50. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    We have never before had the power go off and STAY off in an urban area with 20 million people before. There is NO way to evacuate that many people as fast as you would need to before they started to die from all the various things like lack of water, food, or from heatstroke or freezing temperatures. Imagine if the disaster happened in January or February. How many people in the big cities are going to survive temperatures well below freezing in homes without power? Even if they have oil-based heat it doesn't work without power.

    I have seen a mass evacuation. People will evacuate with a quarter tank of gas, a bag of chips, and a soda for each person. During Hurricane Rita there was a 113-mile long parking lot that was on both sides of Interstate I-45 all going north and NOT MOVING. They were there for days and days. Fortunately, it was September and not August with 100-degree temperatures. Now imagine it never getting cleared out and no gasoline available. Did I mention that even though it was September and the temperatures were mild that most sat there in their cars with the motor running until they either ran out of gas or their engine overheated and locked up?

    Anything that takes own the power for a long period is going to make the mega-urban areas into giant death traps. NYC has enough food and water for three days and then there will be nothing to eat, no water, no sewage flow, and no gas for the cars. The death rate for places like NYC, Chicago, LA, Detroit, Boston Washington DC, ETC, according to the CIA estimates, will be 90% or more. the Rates in Rural areas will be much better for the first month and then rise as old people start to die and violence starts to rise.

    Riots and fires in major metropolitan areas are almost a certainty while rural areas will have no problem with that. Not being piled up on top of each other makes for a lot less tension AND country folks are almost all armed to some extent. Cities may be nice in the good times but they are totally unsupportable without a big nation working hard to feed and supply them with the necessities.
     
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    1. Old Geezer
      "mass evacuation" translation to street parlance = "cluster f###"

      One itty-bitty teeny-tiny electrical outage and we hear the following from the NYC mayor/clown:

      https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...till-without-power-after-heat-wave-2019-07-22

      Out of sheer curiosity, I'd love to see what a protracted power outage in NYC would bring. I know it would be well beyond bad, but I'd like to see the after-the-fact movie documentary (a true one, not a historical re-write). I won't, but I could write the script, "Day #1, the people were frustrated and concerned, .... Day #14 riots continued in the streets as ...". And that's if they made it to day 14.
       
      Old Geezer, Jul 15, 2020
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